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Thread: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    Things like this don't change over night. It's a slow and gradual process. Do you believe we shouldn't be praising middle eastern countries for slowly making women relevant in society?
    That's true. And how do they change? Continued pressure.

    This is how we (as in the international community) have gotten many countries to improve their conditions. We don't allow them to sit at the table until they reach a level of acceptability -- and this has worked over and over again, and improved the lives of hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people. It is no big accomplishment to be 5% less brutal than they were before. Whooptie-do. The accomplishment is moving away from brutality completely.

    Not until they reach a level of acceptability, no. Things will never reach acceptability unless pressure remains high.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    Offering forgiveness to people that have had abortions is a subtle attempt to change the tone.
    The Church has always offered forgiveness to sinners of all types. There is no change.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    That's true. And how do they change? Continued pressure. This is how we (as in the international community) have gotten many countries to improve their conditions. We don't allow them to sit at the table until they reach a level of acceptability -- and this has worked over and over again, and improved the lives of hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people. It is no big accomplishment to be 5% less brutal than they were before. Whooptie-do. The accomplishment is moving away from brutality completely.

    Not until they reach a level of acceptability, no. Things will never reach acceptability unless pressure remains.
    You can pressure them to join the civilized world and praise steps in that direction at the same time. Being happy that the church is attempting to change is not the equivalent of saying "Okay, we're cool now."

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Anomalism View Post
    You can keep the pressure on them to join the civilized world and praise steps in that direction at the same time. Being happy that the church is attempting to change is not the equivalent of saying "Okay, we're cool now."
    Yes it is. Where is the criticism? There is none. It's all, "Wow, Pope Francis has a slightly less draconian tone that previous popes, even if he's really saying the exact same thing!" That's all I've been hearing since this guy stepped in. So the message that sends is, "Yeah, we're cool now." But we're not.

    What has typically worked when this is applied to countries is simply ignoring their requests to join until they reach that benchmark. No praise. If they apply, they are refused. They get nothing until they reach the benchmark.

    And that is how the civilized world should be dealing with the Catholic church.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    And that is how the civilized world should be dealing with the Catholic church.
    Please answer the question I asked you. Should the Catholic Church be suppressed?

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    Yes it is. Where is the criticism? There is none. It's all, "Wow, Pope Francis has a slightly less draconian tone that previous popes, even if he's really saying the exact same thing!" That's all I've been hearing since this guy stepped in. So the message that sends is, "Yeah, we're cool now." But we're not.

    What has typically worked when this is applied to countries is simply ignoring their requests to join until they reach that benchmark. No praise. If they apply, they are refused. They get nothing until they reach the benchmark.

    And that is how the civilized world should be dealing with the Catholic church.
    I think positive reinforcement can be a good thing. I also think most people that had a problem with the church before Pope Francis still have a problem with it now, despite possibly giving props to the Pope for attempting to take the church out of the middle ages. I think future popes might see how popular Francis was and attempt to follow that trend.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by SmokeAndMirrors View Post
    For non-Catholics, no, I don't think we should.

    That gives the impression that this is in any way good enough. It isn't. The church is barely what might be considered acceptable to exist by legal technicality. That is not good enough in 2015. And if he wants praise and to be welcome at the table of civilized societies, then he needs to keep working.

    No deal.
    I wasn't aware you were put in charge of brokering deals on behalf of all civilized societies everywhere, congrats.

    Meanwhile, back on planet earth, there are a billion Catholics to whom the pope's actions are highly relevant. You have every right to not be one of them, but you have no right to speak for them.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleocon View Post
    Please answer the question I asked you. Should the Catholic Church be suppressed?
    In some respects, yes. It is operating criminal cover for paedophiles, and has been for decades, and in that respect, it absolutely needs to be "suppressed," by which I mean all people who have committed, covered for, or ignored these activities need to be sent to prison. They need to be dealt with as aggressively as possible so the Church gets the message that we will not permit this to continue.

    Otherwise, as pertains to their questionable ethical positions and negative advocacy in the world, I think they deserve to be either ignored or openly criticized, and considered unwelcome at the table of civilized nation states, since the Vatican fancies itself a sovereign.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    This is an interesting baby step. Still a baby step, in a situation where long strides are necessary, but this is an interesting way to move the church slowly away from its entrenched misogyny and maybe remain relevant in the modern world. Whether he's as much of a force for good as some would like him to be or not, you really can't deny that this pope is crafty. He seems to have a plan and is definitely going with it.
    Yeah, but it still seems silly that, because it is holy year, and because a special representative has some kind of supernatural power, he can mumble some words and wave his hands and revoke someone's ticket to hell.

    Symbolism
    Ich habe schon Pferde vor der Apotheke kotzen sehen.

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    Re: Pope Francis will send ‘missionaries of mercy’ to absolve women of abortion ‘sin’

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    I wasn't aware you were put in charge of brokering deals on behalf of all civilized societies everywhere, congrats.

    Meanwhile, back on planet earth, there are a billion Catholics to whom the pope's actions are highly relevant. You have every right to not be one of them, but you have no right to speak for them.
    The first words of my post are "for non-Catholics." Try reading -- it may stop you from spouting nonsense.

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