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Thread: Shot NYPD cop dies

  1. #121
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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Historically, before or after any gun laws-the UK has always had a lower rate of crime against law enforcement.
    Not just the UK but every other developed country too . Why do you think that is ?

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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    The father wasn't the only one overstating the safety of the weapon. The organizers, the range officers, the event organizers and the other parents who also let their children participate overestimated the safety as well. Most of these same people would shoot a dirty look to a parent that let their kid sit in the front seat w/o a seatbelt, but think it's perfectly normal to let a child fire an Uzi.

    Insofar as "natural rights' or "god given rights", they are a nice idea, but they don't exist unless other people agree, which means without the agreement of others around you that the rights are "inalienable" or "natural", they are nothing. You must convince your fellow man in the value of the rights you claim are "natural". Which is not to say that I don't support firearm ownership, just that I think there are reasonable limits with regard to responsibility and attitude.

    Ahhh the ubiquitous "car" argument. An argument that only helps demonstrate my point. We know that everything we do comes with some risk. Cars like anything else can be abused and we try to put common sense limits on cars. We require licences, insurance, registration impose speed limits, safety tolerances ect....We put more limits on a car than say a bicycle because of the potential danger it poses. The difference between a firearm and a car is one is designed exclusively to project force in an extremely compact and efficient package (pocket sized in some cases), cars are a vital part of our overall lifestyle and economy. If all the cars in the world vanished, modern life as we know it would end.

    While a car can project force, that isn't it's design goal. It is designed to ferry around people and objects and we accept the tradeoff between it's utility and the inevitable consequences of misuse. But ever since the car was developed it has gotten safer and safer. Firearms have stated the same and the culture has be come more resistant than ever to social change, either by government or within itself. Frankly I think most of the changes have to come within the culture rather than through legislation. before I'm reminded that crime has fallen, I would challenge the notion that the reason it's fallen cannot be correlated to firearms in any meaningful way. Changes in the crime rate have lots of participating factors.
    The participants and supervisors at the range knew the risks as well. You are shooting and in close proximity to rapidly expanding gases and bullets. It was a freak event, but freak events can happen, its very much the exception.

    As for design-thats not what we are talking about-an uzi wasn't designed to swing around and hit the shooter in the head. Again-a freak event. Just like cars aren't designed to kill others and yet it happens over 40K times a year. Ive lost count of the people Ive seen killed falling between the bed and wall or toilet and wall-quietly suffocated-should we ban toilets and beds? Firearms are already under close scrutiny-as they should be.

    The British didn't agree with the colonists about natural rights. They found out the hard way they weren't to be taken lightly.

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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Not just the UK but every other developed country too . Why do you think that is ?
    How about a very different history?

  4. #124
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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    How about a very different history?
    Or perhaps a very different entertainment media ?

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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    here is the breakdown for the US

    National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund: 126 Law Enforcement Officer Fatalities Nationwide in 2014

    For the UK here is the all time historical list which is but a tiny fraction of the US totals even allowing for population differentials

    List of British police officers killed in the line of duty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



    Probably true I'm just going by the figures I've read lately

    You



    49 traffic related incidents.
    27 from illness and related issues

    50 which is up from 25 the previous year were from "firearms related deaths"...
    14 from other types of assaults

    statistically with nearly 1 million police officers, 126 dead, 64 from homicides, is a very low number.

    that would put the homicide rate among police at 6.4 per 100,000

    homicide rate in US is 4.7 per 100,000 (2013 rates).


    Statistically police work is not much more dangerous than being a civilian.
    If you build an army of 100 lions and their leader is a dog, in any fight, the lions will die like a dog. But if you build an army of 100 dogs and their leader is a lion, all dogs will fight like a lion.

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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by Red_Dave View Post
    How so? If the murder rate is general is the same (I assume lower?, im having some trouble finding stats) we can assume that they would find another weapon in lieu of a gun. It would be fair to assume that the rate of katana related murders is higher in Japan, this doesnt mean that the presence of Katanas makes Japan inherently more dangerous. And of course all of this is assuming that all the guns in the U.S would magically disapear once a ban was imposed, which given the U.Ss highly organized traddition of organized crime would appear somewhat unlikely.
    Thats been studied as well-in many countries, most gun deaths are actually suicides, and when countries around the world banned guns, it was found that other methods were instead used.

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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Or perhaps a very different entertainment media ?
    Well, lets test that. If we go back to even before radio or television, the US still had higher murder rates, and most of the plays/books/etc up to that point were contemporary with europe.

    So I dont think thats the case.

    Now there IS a problem with "parents" (often mom off working and dad not in the picture) where entertainment holds much more power than is necessary. And those kids have a harder time with empathy, compassion, responsibility, etc. But I dont think thats unique to the US.

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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Statistically police work is not much more dangerous than being a civilian.
    Statistically many orders of magnitude greater risk than police forces of any other developed country though

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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Statistically many orders of magnitude greater risk than police forces of any other developed country though


    Statistically small, if I need a million and I have one, and you tell me you will help me by doubling what I have or giving me 100 times what I have, that's a magnitude as well.


    Also you take out those with criminal records and we are as low as any other nation. (most homicides involve criminals on criminals.)
    If you build an army of 100 lions and their leader is a dog, in any fight, the lions will die like a dog. But if you build an army of 100 dogs and their leader is a lion, all dogs will fight like a lion.

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    Re: Shot NYPD cop dies

    Quote Originally Posted by US Conservative View Post
    Well, lets test that. If we go back to even before radio or television, the US still had higher murder rates, and most of the plays/books/etc up to that point were contemporary with europe.

    So I dont think thats the case.

    Now there IS a problem with "parents" (often mom off working and dad not in the picture) where entertainment holds much more power than is necessary. And those kids have a harder time with empathy, compassion, responsibility, etc. But I dont think thats unique to the US.
    The fact that more than three quarters of the output of Hollywood or your TV dramas involve gunplay in one form or another coupled with easy access to many of the guns often featured must certainly have a major psychological effect for many though. The glorification of gun violence as entertainment cannot be right and by dint of its saturation exposure must ultimately take its toll in the real world
    Last edited by flogger; 05-06-15 at 02:23 PM.

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