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Thread: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    There are advocates of free speech that don't support her. I will also point out that as an atheist I may be debating a Christian and make a comment in the course of it that the Christian may find offensive.
    Sure. But you know your life and your safety will not be in jeopardy by offending Christians.
    But my sensibilities consider that quite different from gratuitously drawing ridiculing cartoons of Jesus. I considered the "art" piece, the crucifix in piss (I believe it was) to be a fair expression of the "artists" free speech. But I also considered it gratuitously offensive, of no value, mean spirited and something I would never go and look at. It's also something that I would never produce myself.
    Certainly it was juvenile, offensive, and an attention getter but his life was never in jeopardy. There were protests made and they were largely against the idea that this display was publicly funded. But no one responded in the same way then as they have against Pamela Geller.
    This straw man argument that somebody wants to censor somebodies free speech is a facade for bigots, and nasty and hateful people who have nothing better to do than spew their hatred. And knuckle dragging mouth breathers lined up in Gellers studio to draw their cute little cartoons. Bet non of them will participate in such a childish game again though.
    You share the same opinion as the Jihadists and you may be right that it will never happen again. Do you expect more threats from Muslims, perhaps a larger contingent the next time, if a similar contest be held?

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    What's wrong with you. I've repeated often enough my opposition to public/government censorship of anybody's 1st amendment right. So stop asserting such foolishness. I've suggested that reasonable people censor themselves regularly, not wishing to gratuitously offend the sensibilities of others. That's what separates ladies and gentlemen from bigots and haters. The only benefit one gets from drawing ridiculing cartoons of Mohamed is the satisfaction of antagonising a hated group. Again, knock yourselves out and accept the consequences.
    Am I right then in that you support self-censorship when it comes to mocking, antagonizing or criticizing Muslims?

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Sure. But you know your life and your safety will not be in jeopardy by offending Christians.
    Certainly it was juvenile, offensive, and an attention getter but his life was never in jeopardy. There were protests made and they were largely against the idea that this display was publicly funded. But no one responded in the same way then as they have against Pamela Geller.
    You share the same opinion as the Jihadists and you may be right that it will never happen again. Do you expect more threats from Muslims, perhaps a larger contingent the next time, if a similar contest be held?
    Grant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nobody's suggesting that the response to Geller has a shred of legitimacy. Its unfortunate that these extremists consider killing a proportionate response to Geller's ugliness. But then I guess that's the reason they're extremists! But there is a legitimate criticism of Geller and her troops who could not deny themselves the impulse to gratuitously offend the sensibilities of a group they hate so. But for the umpteenth time, let them continue their stage show till the extremists succeed in killing somebody.

    And yes, I suspect that as long as Geller and others continue to insist that they have a free speech right to openly antagonise a religious group for no other benefit then the satisfaction that they get out of offending the sensibilities of a group of people that they hate, that they will continue to fall under attack.
    Last edited by Montecresto; 05-07-15 at 11:21 AM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Am I right then in that you support self-censorship when it comes to mocking, antagonizing or criticizing Muslims?
    I just provided you with an example of how I support self censorship when it comes to gratuitously mocking, antagonising and criticising Christians, too! What's your point?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Grant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nobody's suggesting that the response to Geller has a shred of legitimacy. Its unfortunate that these extremists consider killing a proportionate response to Geller's ugliness. But then I guess that's the reason they're extremists! But there is a legitimate criticism of Geller and her troops who could not deny themselves the impulse to gratuitously offend the sensibilities of a group they hate so. But for the umpteenth time, let them continue their stage show till the extremists succeed in killing somebody.
    The 'extremists' are killing people with or without these exhibitions. This contest only offered an excuse that you and many others might understand and criticize but usually they are killing just for the sake of killing, to spread fear and intimidation throughout the non-Muslim world.

    These two Muslims killed in Garland were ready to kill other innocent people at a venue which probably wouldn't have armed guards, just as other 'extremists' have done in coffee shops, grocery stores, pizza parlors, and so on. They don't need an excuse to kill.

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    I just provided you with an example of how I support self censorship when it comes to gratuitously mocking, antagonising and criticising Christians, too! What's your point?
    Just wanted clarification. thanks.

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by bubbabgone View Post
    What the hell is happening here?
    What I believe we're seeing here Bubba, is a similar situation to what often plays out in some neighborhood bars on a hot Saturday night -

    +++

    A drunk is loud & threatening, and the patrons react in differing ways:

    - Some ignore his talk - thinking it's just drunken noise, and they'll let the management or authorities deal with the miscreant, rather than escalate the situation.

    - Others decide to take matters in their own hands, & confront the guy straight-on.

    The confronters think the ignorers lack spine & scruples.

    The ignorers think the conronters lack common sense and maturity.

    +++

    Obviously the Texas incident has more facets & nuances than a neighborhood bar indecent, but I think the underlying dynamics form a reasonable analogy.

    I spent a lot of time in neighborhood bars back-in-the-day, and early-on learned there's a mean drunk looking for a fight in pretty much every bar, and there's no way I'd ever give them the pleasure of drawing me into a drunken fight.

    Honestly though, in this case it appears to me the confronters aren't just confronting to eliminate the situation, but are standing on the other end of the bar, yelling back & goading the drunk into coming down and fighting!

    Well, that's my take on it, anyway.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    And yes, I suspect that as long as Geller and others continue to insist that they have a free speech right to openly antagonise a religious group for no other benefit then the satisfaction that they get out of offending the sensibilities of a group of people that they hate, that they will continue to fall under attack.
    I believe you are correct here.

    And it is their constitutional right to do so (unless the authorities deem their activities a hazard or breaking the peace), and as an American I feel obliged to support them, and I do - we are all brethren.

    But as an individual person, I disagree with what they're doing.

    The worst of all this is: some relative minority is bringing unnecessary danger upon others in the greater community who may not want any part of this. The old saying, "A bullet knows no name" is a truism, and I'm sure it applies to bombs, biologicals, and other methods of death & destruction. It also applies to returned fire.

    It is my understanding the community fought hard against this event, and the vote to precede was a close one - and for good reason: No one wants to take a piece of lead for someone else's crusade. This crowd is playing with real danger here, and somebody's going to get hurt - and that somebody is just as likely to be an innocent as one of the participants.
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The 'extremists' are killing people with or without these exhibitions. This contest only offered an excuse that you and many others might understand and criticize but usually they are killing just for the sake of killing, to spread fear and intimidation throughout the non-Muslim world.

    These two Muslims killed in Garland were ready to kill other innocent people at a venue which probably wouldn't have armed guards, just as other 'extremists' have done in coffee shops, grocery stores, pizza parlors, and so on. They don't need an excuse to kill.
    Yeah unfortunately they probably were. But what does that have to do with Geller's provocation.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Just wanted clarification. thanks.
    You are welcome.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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