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Thread: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

  1. #441
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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas [W:439]

    This was not terrorism! This was workplace violence

    Repeat after me: Workplace violence. Workplace violence. Workplace violence.

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Considering that this so called voicing of an opinion was designed to create a reaction somewhere... then this is no different than the actual act committed. It is like shouting fire in a crowded theatre and people getting trampled to death.. you are still responsible for the trampling even though you have your "free speech" to shout fire.
    I'm sorry but this is ridiculously wrong and based around a horribly incorrect understanding of how the laws work in the United States.

    First, shouting "fire" in a theater is not inherently against the law. Neither is it against the law simply because people get trampled. It is only against the law if there is some kind of legitimate injurous circumstance from it and the shouting of such was done with knowledge that such a claim was false.

    Second, the REASON that is not okay is because there's a REASONABLE expectation that a panic will be caused by shouting such a thing in a crowded place because it's again REASONABLE that people would react to that speech by trying to flee as fast as possible. As such, your "speech" being done fraudulently (in the case where there is no fire and you know htat) is meant to incite a REASONABLE response from the observers.

    That in NO WAY is comparable to this situation. In no way, shape, or form is murder a reasonable and justifiable response to "drawing pictures of muhammed". Its not a reasonable or justifiable response to 1000 people all drawing 1000 pictures of muhammed in one locatoin. MURDERING someone due to their speech is never viewed as "reasonable" or "justifiable" as it relates to the law in this country.

    As such, this is not akin to yelling fire fraudulently in a crowded theater, because the response in question is one that no one should REASONABLE assume that any REASONABLE member of the audience would actually engage in.

    Your post is beyond ridiculous and non-sensical as an analogy.
    Imagine if Walmart owned access to all the streets in your town. You can go to Target or the mom and pop downtown if you want, but all the roads leading there require a toll, whereas the roads leading to Walmart are free. That is not the avenue the internet needs to go down.

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Anglo-scot View Post
    You've got a very different situation on your hands which needs a lot of careful handling. For good or for bad, America has welcomed Muslims as citizens of their country. We have done the same in the UK. Muslims come from very different cultural backgrounds to ours. In many of their countries of origin, it is more likely that they deal with actions which dishonour them and their brethren with violence - anything less is considered weakness.

    We have the right to expect some sort of openness to Western culture from Muslims who settle here, such openness does not always exist. If it's not there, then integration will never happen and it's best for all concerned if they are helped to go to a country they like. However, if there is some openness to integration, it will be fragile and the actual process of integration will be painful, slow and not necessarily successful. Many Muslims have a backstory of bitterness towards Western nations such as the UK and the US who have killed so many of their fellow Muslims over the years. As we know, their religion is also fervent. Integration of large numbers of Muslims into Western countries is probably one of the most ambitious programmes ever attempted in social history, and to be honest, it's not going very well, probably because we had no idea what we were getting involved in.

    So, having taken the decision to welcome people into our nations as fellow citizens, who have such incredibly different values to ours, we have some onus to show them respect for their personal beliefs (like we do for different Christian groups). We owe this to ourselves and to them if we want to make our society work. If we say, these are our values - shape up or ship out, and by the way we support people who ridicule your values, it's just not going to work. Given that we are willing to make an effort to respect difference in so many areas of our lives, is it really so hard for our societies to agree not to ridicule the dearest tenets of their religion? Is that such a big sacrifice? Do we have to stand on principle and say it's my right to mock your religion - this is what America / UK etc is about? Can we not take issue with Islam and its problems in a civilised way?
    America has hundreds of years of experience when it comes to mass immigration. Our country is primarily made up of immigrants with all different backgrounds and stories.

    The way it has worked best in the past, and the way it will work this time, is that the immigrants are the ones who need to conform to our values and beliefs, not the other way around. You're welcome to come to the land of opportunity and you're free to pursue the best life for yourself, but don't expect anyone else to learn about your culture or capitulate to you. You're in Anerica, start acting like an American.

    This formula has worked for generations, no reason to deviate from it now.

    Freedom of speech is not something we're going to willingly give up, especially to assuage a group of radicals who generally are distrusted to begin with.

    They're gonna have to learn to hack it just like every other generation of immigrants before them. And in the Wild West, if you come on with your guns drawn, the lawmen might just shoot you down. Lesson learned and score 1 for the good guys.

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    hosting a "lets draw the prophet" party is right up there with sticking a fork into a live toaster.
    The fact that you feel a group of people getting together to draw pictures of a religious figure is similar to sticking a metal object into a toaster in terms of risk, potential for harm, and danger to me speaks FAR MORE about those reacting to the event then it tells me about the people doing it.

    I'd think the fact that there's seemingly a large enough contingent of a particular religion that is so extremist in nature that drawing a religious figure is equivelent in danger to jabbing metal into electrical objects is mindbogglingly problematic.
    Imagine if Walmart owned access to all the streets in your town. You can go to Target or the mom and pop downtown if you want, but all the roads leading there require a toll, whereas the roads leading to Walmart are free. That is not the avenue the internet needs to go down.

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    The fact that you feel a group of people getting together to draw pictures of a religious figure is similar to sticking a metal object into a toaster in terms of risk, potential for harm, and danger to me speaks FAR MORE about those reacting to the event then it tells me about the people doing it.

    I'd think the fact that there's seemingly a large enough contingent of a particular religion that is so extremist in nature that drawing a religious figure is equivelent in danger to jabbing metal into electrical objects is mindbogglingly problematic.

    It is problematic and until we can get on top of this home grown Islamic extremism events like these will continue to be dangerous to those participating and those forced to protect the participants.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    It is problematic and until we can get on top of this home grown Islamic extremism events like these will continue to be dangerous to those participating and those forced to protect the participants.
    Indeed they will.

    And being a female out at 1:30 AM, tipsy and alone, walking through somewhat dark streets to the local metro station is also sadly a potential dangerous situation compared to most...and yet we wouldn't, and don't, suggest females should stop going out to Bars or blame them if a guy takes advantage of such a situation to rape her.

    Do I like the event they held? No. Do I think it was childish and juvenile, meant far more to be provocative and trollish than any legitimate desire to care about "free speech"? Yes. But does that mean they SHOULDN'T have done their event? No. People shouldn't stop attempting to express themeslves...no matter how stupid it may be..simply because a group MIGHT do something violent to them, because all thta does is encourage other groups to take up a similar tactic because it shows that IT WORKS.

    If not for my local sports teams being in the playoffs, I'd still have this as my signature and it'd be just as appropriate as it was when I first put it there:

    Kyle: That's because there is no goo, Mr. Cruise. You see, I learned something today. Throughout this whole ordeal, we've all wanted to show things that we weren't allowed to show, but it wasn't because of some magic goo. It was because of the magical power of threatening people with violence. That's obviously the only true power. If there's anything we've all learned, it's that terrorizing people works.

    Jesus: That's right. Don't you see, gingers, if you don't want to be made fun of anymore, all you need are guns and bombs to get people to stop.

    Santa: That's right, friends. All you need to do is instill fear and be willing to hurt people and you can get whatever you want. The only true power is violence.
    Imagine if Walmart owned access to all the streets in your town. You can go to Target or the mom and pop downtown if you want, but all the roads leading there require a toll, whereas the roads leading to Walmart are free. That is not the avenue the internet needs to go down.

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    Indeed they will.

    And being a female out at 1:30 AM, tipsy and alone, walking through somewhat dark streets to the local metro station is also sadly a potential dangerous situation compared to most...and yet we wouldn't, and don't, suggest females should stop going out to Bars or blame them if a guy takes advantage of such a situation to rape her.

    Do I like the event they held? No. Do I think it was childish and juvenile, meant far more to be provocative and trollish than any legitimate desire to care about "free speech"? Yes. But does that mean they SHOULDN'T have done their event? No. People shouldn't stop attempting to express themeslves...no matter how stupid it may be..simply because a group MIGHT do something violent to them, because all thta does is encourage other groups to take up a similar tactic because it shows that IT WORKS.

    I think what we are seeing is unprecedented and security agencies from France, UK, US, Germany etc are saying that it is almost impossible to track all these "bedroom fanatic's". We have seen one of the world's biggest marathons attacked in broad daylight, over a thousand Muslims leave Europe to join ISIS in Syria, a British soldier beheaded in the street, a French Newspaper attacked by trained armed men etc and all in the last 2 years.
    Again for me until we can get to grips with it I think these kind of events are just simply too dangerous and reckless, plus it's not like they haven't stepped in before to stop these kind of things that Florida pastor rings a bell.
    ‘This is not peace, it is an armistice for 20 years.’ (Ferdinand Foch. After the Treaty of Versailles, 1919).

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter Grimm View Post
    America has hundreds of years of experience when it comes to mass immigration. Our country is primarily made up of immigrants with all different backgrounds and stories.

    The way it has worked best in the past, and the way it will work this time, is that the immigrants are the ones who need to conform to our values and beliefs, not the other way around. You're welcome to come to the land of opportunity and you're free to pursue the best life for yourself, but don't expect anyone else to learn about your culture or capitulate to you. You're in Anerica, start acting like an American.

    This formula has worked for generations, no reason to deviate from it now.

    Freedom of speech is not something we're going to willingly give up, especially to assuage a group of radicals who generally are distrusted to begin with.

    They're gonna have to learn to hack it just like every other generation of immigrants before them. And in the Wild West, if you come on with your guns drawn, the lawmen might just shoot you down. Lesson learned and score 1 for the good guys.
    |Points taken but the historic approach won't work with many Muslims, for the reasons I set out in my post. We are talking about a group of people with huge obstacles to integration. No doubt, this problem was not anticipated in the US - it certainly wasn't in the UK.

    I would say that, if nothing changes, you're heading for a showdown. The right of free speech isn't going to change and IMO doesn't need so much focus. It would be conciliatory for Muslims to hear from Americans that they don't consider that insulting the religion of American Muslims is a morally acceptable way to behave and that the organisers of this meeting were wrong to put it on. Let's hope Barack Obama says something conciliatory.

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I think what we are seeing is unprecedented and security agencies from France, UK, US, Germany etc are saying that it is almost impossible to track all these "bedroom fanatic's". We have seen one of the world's biggest marathons attacked in broad daylight, over a thousand Muslims leave Europe to join ISIS in Syria, a British soldier beheaded in the street, a French Newspaper attacked by trained armed men etc and all in the last 2 years.
    Again for me until we can get to grips with it I think these kind of events are just simply too dangerous and reckless, plus it's not like they haven't stepped in before to stop these kind of things that Florida pastor rings a bell.
    Nobody "stepped in" and stopped the Florida pastor from burning copies of the Quran, he had a change of heart and decided not to proceed with it on his own.

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Higgins86 View Post
    I think what we are seeing is unprecedented and security agencies from France, UK, US, Germany etc are saying that it is almost impossible to track all these "bedroom fanatic's". We have seen one of the world's biggest marathons attacked in broad daylight, over a thousand Muslims leave Europe to join ISIS in Syria, a British soldier beheaded in the street, a French Newspaper attacked by trained armed men etc and all in the last 2 years.
    Again for me until we can get to grips with it I think these kind of events are just simply too dangerous and reckless, plus it's not like they haven't stepped in before to stop these kind of things that Florida pastor rings a bell.
    The elephant in the room is our military interventions in the Middle East. We've never apologised for them properly or tried to make amends. Then idiots pile in with their childish expressions of freedom of speech against Islam and the whole thing becomes a powder keg.

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