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Thread: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit [W:439, 529, 978, 1489]

  1. #991
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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    I believe you are correct here.

    And it is their constitutional right to do so (unless the authorities deem their activities a hazard or breaking the peace), and as an American I feel obliged to support them, and I do - we are all brethren.

    But as an individual person, I disagree with what they're doing.

    The worst of all this is: some relative minority is bringing unnecessary danger upon others in the greater community who may not want any part of this. The old saying, "A bullet knows no name" is a truism, and I'm sure it applies to bombs, biologicals, and other methods of death & destruction. It also applies to returned fire.

    It is my understanding the community fought hard against this event, and the vote to precede was a close one - and for good reason: No one wants to take a piece of lead for someone else's crusade. This crowd is playing with real danger here, and somebody's going to get hurt - and that somebody is just as likely to be an innocent as one of the participants.
    Good point there that hasn't been mentioned yet. I use to live in Garland, but glad to be gone. I would have been really pissed off at Geller for inviting that violence into my neighbourhood had I still been living there. Though I would prefer that people self censor then to have the "authorities" deciding how people ought to express their 1st amendment rights.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Though I would prefer that people self censor then to have the "authorities" deciding how people ought to express their 1st amendment rights.
    Obviously.

    But then if everyone would self 'do the right thing', we wouldn't need any 'authorities'!
    "When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

    The 10 Commandments of Logic - (Courtesy of Abbazorkzog Blog)

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    Obviously.

    But then if everyone would self 'do the right thing', we wouldn't need any 'authorities'!
    Yep, democracy isn't easy. Wasn't it Bush that lamented how much easier his job would be if he were only a dictator.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  4. #994
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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Chomsky View Post
    What I believe we're seeing here Bubba, is a similar situation to what often plays out in some neighborhood bars on a hot Saturday night -

    +++

    A drunk is loud & threatening, and the patrons react in differing ways:

    - Some ignore his talk - thinking it's just drunken noise, and they'll let the management or authorities deal with the miscreant, rather than escalate the situation.

    - Others decide to take matters in their own hands, & confront the guy straight-on.

    The confronters think the ignorers lack spine & scruples.

    The ignorers think the conronters lack common sense and maturity.

    +++

    Obviously the Texas incident has more facets & nuances than a neighborhood bar indecent, but I think the underlying dynamics form a reasonable analogy.

    I spent a lot of time in neighborhood bars back-in-the-day, and early-on learned there's a mean drunk looking for a fight in pretty much every bar, and there's no way I'd ever give them the pleasure of drawing me into a drunken fight.

    Honestly though, in this case it appears to me the confronters aren't just confronting to eliminate the situation, but are standing on the other end of the bar, yelling back & goading the drunk into coming down and fighting!

    Well, that's my take on it, anyway.
    I understand your analogy but what if the drunk comes in and says you have to drink Heineken and you say nah, you work for Coors and that's all you drink.
    Will you change? Will you leave?

    And that's in a public bar.

    But what if it was a private home and they heard that you're having a party and serving Coors and they burst in to make you serve Heineken.

    That's an even more precise analogy.

    Nope. Sorry. There's no place for Constitutional compromise on this. The slope is too slippery and we're already half way down.

    The more we, all of us, unabashedly exercise our rights the less anyone will be inclined to think they can forcibly persuade us not to.
    Better never than late.

  5. #995
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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    Wow.. such a compelling rebuttal.

    Since 2001, jihadists have killed 13 people on US soil. Right wing extremists have killed 34. Exactly zero jihadists aquired or used chemical or biological weapons compared to 13 right wing terrorists, one left wing terrorist, and two with idiosyncratic beliefs.

    Frazier Glenn Cross killed three people at two Jewish centers in 2014. He founded the Carolina Knights of the KKK and the White Patriot Party.
    Wade Michael Page killed six people at a Sikh temple in 2012, twice the death toll of the Boston Marathon bombings. He was in a white supremacist band.
    Shawna Forde, Albert Gaxiola, and Jason Bush raided a home in Arizona in 2009, killing two in an effort to fund their anti-immigration vigilante group, Minutemen American Defense.
    In 2009 Scot Roeder murdered Dr. George Tiller. Scott Roeder also had ties to the Sovereign Citizens.


    And many many more...
    I'm not saying that jihadists aren't a threat, but in order of danger it goes something like this : Right Wing Terrorists > Unaffiliated Terrorists > Left Wing Terrorists > Islamic Terrorists.
    Funny how you want to start the count AFTER 9/11!

    Since 2000:

    2000 October 13: Firebombing of Temple Beth El

    2000 New York terror attack Three young men of Arab descent hurled crude Molotov cocktails at a synagogue in The Bronx, New York

    2001 September 11: the September 11, 2001 attacks were carried out by Muslim extremists.

    2002 July 4: 2002 Los Angeles Airport shooting Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, killed two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport.

    October 2002 Beltway sniper attacks: During three weeks in October 2002, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and critically injured 3 others in Washington D.C., Baltimore, and Virginia.

    2006 March 5: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar injured 6 when he drove an SUV into a group of pedestrians at UNC-Chapel Hill to "avenge the deaths or murders of Muslims around the world".

    2006 July 28: Seattle Jewish Federation shooting, Naveed Afzal Haq, an American citizen of Pakistani descent, killed one woman and shoots five others at the Jewish Federation building in Seattle.

    2009 June 1: Arkansas recruiting office shooting: Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad shot and killed one military recruiter and seriously wounded another at a Little Rock

    2009 November 5: 2009 Fort Hood shooting: Nidal Malik Hasan, a US Army Major serving as a Psychiatrist
    2013 April 15: Boston Marathon bombings

    2014 October 23: 2014 New York City hatchet attack

    2014 December 20: Ismaaiyl Brinsley assassinated New York City police officers

    2015 May 3: Curtis Culwell Center attack




    And now the thwarted attempts:

    2001 December: Attemped bombing of Flight 63 with shoe bomb

    2002 May: Thwarted attempt to build and detonate a dirty bomb

    2003 March: Attempted attack on the Brooklyn Bridge

    2003 June: Eleven members of the "Norther Virginia Jihad Network" sentenced to 30 years

    2004 August: Attack of 34th Street Subway station in New York

    2004 August: Jihadis arrested in attempt to assassinate Pakistani diplomat

    ... ah hell, I am tired of writing them all down. There have been 13 successful Islamic terrorist attacks and 20+ failed attacks since the year 2000


    Your attempt to balance the sheet by NOT counting explosive or conventional weapon attacks is noted and ignored because it is pointless.
    Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish and he stops voting for the Free Fish party.

  6. #996
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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    They're dead? Good.

    The right to offend must be protected.

    These folks are the bane of the Islamic community, always ruining it for everyone else.
    "We have more responsibility than power, I think. The newspaper can create great controversies, stir up arguments within the community or discussion, can throw light on injustices....just as it can do the opposite. It can hide things and be a great power for evil." -- Rupert Murdoch, 1968

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by jmotivator View Post
    Funny how you want to start the count AFTER 9/11!

    Since 2000:

    2000 October 13: Firebombing of Temple Beth El

    2000 New York terror attack Three young men of Arab descent hurled crude Molotov cocktails at a synagogue in The Bronx, New York

    2001 September 11: the September 11, 2001 attacks were carried out by Muslim extremists.

    2002 July 4: 2002 Los Angeles Airport shooting Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, a 41-year-old Egyptian national, killed two Israelis and wounds four others at the El Al ticket counter at Los Angeles International Airport.

    October 2002 Beltway sniper attacks: During three weeks in October 2002, John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo killed 10 people and critically injured 3 others in Washington D.C., Baltimore, and Virginia.

    2006 March 5: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar injured 6 when he drove an SUV into a group of pedestrians at UNC-Chapel Hill to "avenge the deaths or murders of Muslims around the world".

    2006 July 28: Seattle Jewish Federation shooting, Naveed Afzal Haq, an American citizen of Pakistani descent, killed one woman and shoots five others at the Jewish Federation building in Seattle.

    2009 June 1: Arkansas recruiting office shooting: Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad shot and killed one military recruiter and seriously wounded another at a Little Rock

    2009 November 5: 2009 Fort Hood shooting: Nidal Malik Hasan, a US Army Major serving as a Psychiatrist
    2013 April 15: Boston Marathon bombings

    2014 October 23: 2014 New York City hatchet attack

    2014 December 20: Ismaaiyl Brinsley assassinated New York City police officers

    2015 May 3: Curtis Culwell Center attack




    And now the thwarted attempts:

    2001 December: Attemped bombing of Flight 63 with shoe bomb

    2002 May: Thwarted attempt to build and detonate a dirty bomb

    2003 March: Attempted attack on the Brooklyn Bridge

    2003 June: Eleven members of the "Norther Virginia Jihad Network" sentenced to 30 years

    2004 August: Attack of 34th Street Subway station in New York

    2004 August: Jihadis arrested in attempt to assassinate Pakistani diplomat

    ... ah hell, I am tired of writing them all down. There have been 13 successful Islamic terrorist attacks and 20+ failed attacks since the year 2000


    Your attempt to balance the sheet by NOT counting explosive or conventional weapon attacks is noted and ignored because it is pointless.
    Where on earth would you get that idea? The mention of chemical and biological attacks/plots is important because those have the potential to cause the most harm. And there have been 12 such right wing plots and 1 left wing plots on US soil. Obviously conventional attacks are also important.

    And I did provide an accurate accounting, even though I did not record every single terrorist attack. The point isn't that Islamic terrorism isn't a threat, the point is that hyperventilating about the threat because of the attacks in Texas is ridiculous. There's more of a threat from right wing terrorist organizations (and left wing environmental terrorists as well).

  8. #998
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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Josie View Post
    Why does she hold some blame?
    http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064599202

    ...and a few other posts on the preceeding pages from that one.

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    Re: Shooting at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    When people are that predictably 'incite-able' you must know they are a problem.
    Two guys attacked out of a billion...

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    Re: Two Shot at Muhammad Art Exhibit in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    "When people prefer to focus on the motives of the victims rather than on the motives of the attackers, they will ignore the single most important matter: that an art exhibition, or free speech, has been targeted".
    The motives of the attackers were never in question.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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