• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

I agree. The only reason to charge all six officers is to appease the mob. What we are seeing is a smooth transition from abuse by police to prosecutorial abuse. But it is interesting to watch those who denounce the former and praise the latter.
But, but, but, some of the arresting officers were black. Heck, the one with the most serious charge is black. How is this going to appease a riotous mob of black people?
 
Wow, you really haven't a clue what you're talking about. The prosecutor claims the knife was legal therefore it's 100% true because she's the authority...

Are you nuts???

Yes, she's the authority, it's her office who decides what cases to take or dismiss. She is the legal authority on that.


Oh, I think it's quite clear who has been making up facts in this thread. And now we have a couple more to add to the "Freddie Gray was hogtied" claim.

Do you know what the term hogtied means? It's where they cuff you behind your back and put you in leg irons.
 
Yeah, the rule was the prisoner has to be buckled in. Baltimore had a similar case with a guy who did the same thing in a police van. He sued and won a bunch of money from the city. The cops knew better, and because they were (allegedly) negligent the prisoner died. Ipso facto, negligent homicide, although I'm not sure where the prosecutor is getting 2nd degree murder. To charge murder the prosecutor is saying that the police intended to kill Gray. I don't think they'll be able to prove that. The police were indifferent, maybe, but intending to kill? Don't think so.

Ok you have a "rule" IE a guideline but do you have an actual statute which states he had to be buckled in? This would be like if I decided to stand up in the back of a moving pick up truck and ended up breaking my neck and then trying to charge the driver for negligent homicide because I was a ****ing idiot, it's asinine and no I'm not a huge fan of law enforcement myself but this case is not analogous to that POS who shot the guy in the back and the like and it certainly isn't a racial issue as some are trying to make it considering that Baltimore's government and police force have if not a majority a proportional African American representation.
 
Yes, she's the authority, it's her office who decides what cases to take or dismiss. She is the legal authority on that.




Do you know what the term hogtied means? It's where they cuff you behind your back and put you in leg irons.

And that's the problem.

I challenge anyone that questions the "depraved heart" element of the driver's charges...

Have your friend "hogtie" you & drive around... Never mind a "rough ride." You have no way to brace your own bodyweight.. You're helpless in that situation. You're basically ******.

Anyone with a lick of common sense, that acknowledges the laws of gravity should have known better.

The police should be held to a higher standard. I think they knew better. Freddie Gray was just another number to them...

I think their behavior was deplorable.
 
As someone that spent a year on ride-a-longs with the police (I wanted to be a cop) I saw my fair share of overly physical treatment. I saw people treated like scum and often used as a tactic to get people angry so they could be searched and/ or arrested. Again, I don't think that what happened in Baltimore is indicative of the majority of arrests across the US, but I would say that it happens far more often than it should.

That certainly needs to be rooted out. I guess we country people don't see much of that. My last interface with the police was a couple of weeks ago when I falied to turn off my security system. The deputy showed up. I thanked him, apologized for my action, invited him for coffee and had good conversation. A few years ago I was stopped for speeding. The cop asked me if I was in a hurry. I said no. I was just going to the post office. No excuse. He commented that most people lied and suggested I probably didn't need a ticket or a lecture and that I should enjoy the afternoon. Pretty boring for the police out here I guess. We did have a murder about 10 years ago but luckily it wasn't at my house. Not exactly the same as Baltimore.
t
 
Yes, she's the authority, it's her office who decides what cases to take or dismiss. She is the legal authority on that.
Which has nothing to do with whether or not her opinion on what qualifies as a legal knife is "100% fact"

Um, no. That's not what the term hogtied means. See below. Had he been hogtied, the whole discussion about the police not putting his seatbelt on would be moot because he wouldn't even have been able to sit down.

b2wnqrhifp4be44egssdrurts.529x324x1.jpg

See also:
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site234/2007/0221/20070221_012354_0221news hogtie.jpg
 
Which has nothing to do with whether or not her opinion on what qualifies as a legal knife is "100% fact"


Um, no. That's not what the term hogtied means. See below. Had he been hogtied, the whole discussion about the police not putting his seatbelt on would be moot because he wouldn't even have been able to sit down.

Umm pretty sure.. she has the authority to say what is and what isn't legal.

He was hogtied in the van as the driver has stated to investigators.
 
Umm pretty sure.. she has the authority to say what is and what isn't legal.
No. We have people called "judges" and groups called "juries" that fill that role.


He was hogtied in the van as the driver has stated to investigators.
There's no evidence of the driver making any such claim.
 
No. We have people called "judges" and groups called "juries" that fill that role.

Uh, no. Elected Prosecutors decided what gets heard in front of judges and juries. You should familiarize yourself with the US judicial system.



There's no evidence of the driver making any such claim.

Really? So you read the whole report? :2wave:
 
Dershowitz - A Sad Day for Justice Motivated by Crowd Control, Any Conviction Unlikely




Sheriff Clarke: Baltimore "Miscarriage of Justice.. Officers Human Sacrifices to Angry Mob.."

 
Exclusive: Baltimore Officer With Inside Info On The Investigation - Hannity



EXCLUSIVE: Friend of Charged Cops on Fox: Freddie Gray Was a ‘Great Witness’ for Us





Baltimore Sergeant Warns Superiors: “It Is About To Get Ugly”

enhanced-17493-1430512517-13.jpg

http://www.buzzfeed.com/albertsamah...ns-superiors-its-about-to-get-ugly#.crEpBg8v0
 
If anybody think these charges are appropriate they are not living in reality.





Inb4 at least one of these officers get convicted and some people claim, "They were just convicted to appease the black citizens."

And anyone who would say something like that is ignorant beyond words
As they were not convicted that would be an absurd thing to say.

But in light of the Prosecutor's statement, anyone who would say that they were not charged to appease the rioters, is ignorant beyond words.





Did anybody here see the video of Gray being loaded into the van?

He was being dragged like his legs were already paralyzed.
Videos have been edited to show only that.
The full video shows him standing on his own on the vehicle and then ducking to get inside.





he claims his statement has been taken out of context.
No, that is your take on what he said.
Not once did he say it didn't happen.

At no point in the below quote did he make any declarative statement about what he said.

“And they trying to make it seem like I told them that, I made it like Freddie Gray did that to hisself (sic),” Allen said. “Why the [expletive] would he do that to hisself (sic)?”

Whether he was being deceitful at this point remains to be seen, but the manner in which he said the above is a way of being deceitful without actually lying.
And he already stated the reason he is saying this is because of fear.

“I had two options today right, either come and talk to y’all and get my credibility straight with ya’ll and not get killed by these [expletive] or not tell a true story,” Allen added. “The only reason I’m doing this is because they put my name in a bad state.”


Plus apparently it is obligatory protocol to seatbelt in a suspect in the van
An unsupported claim. The standard available online
makes exceptions for Officer safety.
Secondly, that is not a law and has no force as such.


It's about time that we start holding the police responsible for their actions and to exert some control against government force
Not by making false accusations and wrongly charging them.





Is there anyone that disputes that officers are responsible for the health and well-being of their prisoners?
Conflation. No one said they weren't, but you are conflating that with Gray being responsible for his actions which brought about his death.


If it can be shown that Mr. Gray wasn't secured (a fact that doesn't seem to be in dispute) how does the driver of the van get exonerated?
That isn't a law.

But how does he get exonerated you ask?
How much you want to bet that it will be argued the the supposed new Policy wasn't properly implemented?


This is a clear cut case of police in Baltimore suspecting someone of a crime and then arresting that person when no crime was committed.
No it really isn't.
They observed what appeared to be a drug deal and they bolted. Chase was given, he resisted and he was found in possession of a knife which was believed to be illegal.
If the Officer was wrong that puts the arrest in the category of a mistake, not an illegal arrest.
But it is definitely not known if he was mistaken or not.


It's also a case of Baltimore police violated department policy.
That remains to be seen, but it is not a criminal violation.





Apparently he checked on Gray numerous times and did not get him medical care, instead he picked up another prisoner. Sounds like depraved indifference at the very least.
Why would he get him care if he didn't need it?





Also, anyone who saw that route the van took as it turned left, right, left, right in a circle until it was right back where it started knows that something is very weird.
No it is not weird.
You get calls to pick suspects up. Then you go to central booking.

Somebody has got some explaining to do, and calling a legal pocket knife a "switchblade" on an "official" police report declaring that as probable cause is just not cutting it.
The Prosecutor may be misleading people here.
No it was not illegal by Maryland law. It may have been illegal by City Ordinance.
While it may have a folding blade it still may fit into the category of illegal by the definition of switch-blade in that statute. That remains to be seen.
 
Happened in Ferguson(remember the fractured bane in the police officer's face?), happened here.
Not even the same.
In the Ferguson case there was no Official source saying anything about a fracture.
It was other non-news sources making the claim.
In Ferguson, the only official thing said was that he received a facial injury requiring hospitalization which was true.





They also hog tied him which is a no no as well. It's illegal procedure in all major Police departments.
Support your claims.


That basically means the cops looked the other way.
Which doesn't appear to have happened.


It was clear cut. Hell it was clear cut the moment the police check his pockets and didn't find a switch blade but a folding blade. The position of those saying he was carrying an illegal knife is because you also have an illegal dentition and thus subject to what is kidnapping.
You are assumign she is correct and that she is not being misleading.

If the Officer believed it was in violation, it is not an illegal arrest as claimed.
So no, it is not clear cut.


No, we have the Prosecuting AUTHORITY in Baltimore saying it was a legal knife. So it's 100% true. Can't dispute the facts and facts were it was a legal knife.
:naughty
No.
It is 100% true that she said that. Whether what she said is 100% true remains to be seen.





And that's the problem.

I challenge anyone that questions the "depraved heart" element of the driver's charges...

Have your friend "hogtie" you & drive around... Never mind a "rough ride." You have no way to brace your own bodyweight.. You're helpless in that situation. You're basically ******.
I see you do not understands how ridiculous that claim is.
The evidence is it was as smooth ride. You are not jarred around on a smooth ride.

We know he was left face down with his head facing forward.
So if he was hogtied, just how did he standup, turn around and slam his head against a bolt in the rear and then fall damaging his voicebox?

The only answer to that is he couldn't have.
 
Oh, not my system. This is the Democrat machine of Baltimore at work. You sure are right about partisanship.

Not just Dems. Elected Judges – States Attorneys – recipe for corruption
 
The Prosecutor may be misleading people here.
No it was not illegal by Maryland law. It may have been illegal by City Ordinance.
While it may have a folding blade it still may fit into the category of illegal by the definition of switch-blade in that statute. That remains to be seen.


Excellent point.

I have lived in jurisdictions where folding knives over a certain length were illegal to carry concealed (folding hunter style Buck knives needed to be carried in a sheath that was at least somewhat visible). Likewise Gray had an extensive arrest history. It is quite possible that he was on probation.

As such, some of the terms to his probation could have been:

- You are subject to arrest if you violate any of the adminstrative terms of your probation. Attempting to evade the police could well be an administrative violation of his probation. In addition, he could have failed to identify himself (running could be considered failure to ID?)
 
Last edited:
That certainly needs to be rooted out. I guess we country people don't see much of that. My last interface with the police was a couple of weeks ago when I falied to turn off my security system. The deputy showed up. I thanked him, apologized for my action, invited him for coffee and had good conversation. A few years ago I was stopped for speeding. The cop asked me if I was in a hurry. I said no. I was just going to the post office. No excuse. He commented that most people lied and suggested I probably didn't need a ticket or a lecture and that I should enjoy the afternoon. Pretty boring for the police out here I guess. We did have a murder about 10 years ago but luckily it wasn't at my house. Not exactly the same as Baltimore.
t

Well I live in a small town and had a similar run in after speeding. Deputy asked me why, I told him I had no excuse, other than I promised my wife I would get back and that I deserved a ticket. He was very pleasant and told me to be safe and sent me on my way (I suspect he let me go for the same reason). Funny thing though. Right as he said he wasn't going to ticket me and was handing my licence back, a car passed him so close that the wind from the car passing made him lose his balance. He looked at me and said, "there is a person that deserves a ticket!".
 
City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers « CBS Baltimore



The medical examiner ruled it was homicide.

Also, there are charges of negligent homicide, abuse of authority, etc.

It was an unlawful arrest, they claim, and their negligence concerning his safety when riding in the police van resulted in his death. They didn't put him in a seat belt, and he apparently fell in the van and broke his neck.

The charges seem appropriate.

What struck me is that they had no real reason to arrest him to begin with. My ex-cop, cop worshipping, coworker even agreed the charges were appropriate.
 
Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
Is there anyone that disputes that officers are responsible for the health and well-being of their prisoners?

Conflation. No one said they weren't, but you are conflating that with Gray being responsible for his actions which brought about his death.

Which actions did Mr. Gray take that put his live in danger? I mean, if you can make that argument, then I can simply turn it around and make the same argument.....If the police had simply rendered/ called for medical attention, Mr. Gray would most likely still be alive and 6 police wouldn't be facing some pretty serious charges.

That isn't a law.

Actually contributing to the death of a person via carelessness, either by accident or intentional is, in fact, against the law.

That's like saying there is no law that says you can't cut down a tree, but if someone is at the top, and you know they are and they die as a result, that is against the law.

They observed what appeared to be a drug deal and they bolted. Chase was given, he resisted and he was found in possession of a knife which was believed to be illegal.
If the Officer was wrong that puts the arrest in the category of a mistake, not an illegal arrest.
But it is definitely not known if he was mistaken or not.

Yes a drug deal suspiciously short of drugs....hmmmmm

That remains to be seen, but it is not a criminal violation.

Again, the criminal part isn't that they violated policy, it's that someone allegedly has died for failure to implement the policy.
 
What struck me is that they had no real reason to arrest him to begin with. My ex-cop, cop worshipping, coworker even agreed the charges were appropriate.

Too early to tell. The concealed carry of a folding knife over a certain length can be a violation of some city ordinances.

Likewise, Gray could very well have been on probation (he had been arrested 18 times, with the last arrest in 2015). As such, it is possible that the terms of his probation included being subject to arrest if he were to violate any of the adminsitrative terms of it.

Administrative violations could well include:
- carrying a concealed weapon of any type
- failure to "ID" (also a seperate misdemeanor criminal offense)
- attempting to evade police questioning about your probation status etc
 
Last edited:
Too early to tell. The concealed carry of a folding knife over a certain length can be a violation of some city ordinances.

She talked about that. She said it was legal to posses, regardless, the cops didn't know he had it on him when they pursued him. Not probable cause.

Likewise, Gray could very well have been on probation (he had been arrested 18 times, with the last arrest in 2015). As such, it is possible that the terms of his probation included being subject to arrest if he were to violate any of the adminsitrative terms of it.

Administrative violations could well include:
- carrying a concealed weapon of any type
- failure to "ID" (also a seperate misdemeanor criminal offense)
- attempting to evade police questioning about your probation status etc

The cops don't have a right to question anyone without probable cause....they didn't have it.
 
She talked about that. She said it was legal to posses

She specifically said state law allowed it to be possessed (and it clearly is legal to possess it). The manner in which it is possessed, however, can be a violation of city ordinances.

The cops don't have a right to question anyone without probable cause....they didn't have it.
Gray ran upon noticing the cops. This may well give the police probable cause to stop Gray and to attempt to identify him, thus leading to questions on his probation status, the concealed knife etc.
 
Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
Is there anyone that disputes that officers are responsible for the health and well-being of their prisoners?



Which actions did Mr. Gray take that put his live in danger? I mean, if you can make that argument, then I can simply turn it around and make the same argument.....If the police had simply rendered/ called for medical attention, Mr. Gray would most likely still be alive and 6 police wouldn't be facing some pretty serious charges.



Actually contributing to the death of a person via carelessness, either by accident or intentional is, in fact, against the law.

That's like saying there is no law that says you can't cut down a tree, but if someone is at the top, and you know they are and they die as a result, that is against the law.



Yes a drug deal suspiciously short of drugs....hmmmmm



Again, the criminal part isn't that they violated policy, it's that someone allegedly has died for failure to implement the policy.
Im not sure why the guy was arrested, but he was no stranger to handcuffs. He led police on a foot chase and had to be tazed in order to be subdued. But I don't see why the officers had to be charged with 'wrongful imprisonment.' That seems way over the top and will almost certainly be dismissed. If the guy died because of injuries that took place in the van due to intentional action by the driver, then the driver should be charged and the others should just face disciplinary hearings within the department at most. This overzealous prosecutor has simply set the stage for acquittals that will only reinforce the idea that the system is flawed, when in truth, it is her charges that were flawed.
 
Ok you have a "rule" IE a guideline but do you have an actual statute which states he had to be buckled in? This would be like if I decided to stand up in the back of a moving pick up truck and ended up breaking my neck and then trying to charge the driver for negligent homicide because I was a ****ing idiot, it's asinine and no I'm not a huge fan of law enforcement myself but this case is not analogous to that POS who shot the guy in the back and the like and it certainly isn't a racial issue as some are trying to make it considering that Baltimore's government and police force have if not a majority a proportional African American representation.

In point of fact, any time this sort of negligence results in death it could result in criminal charges. But it seldom does because prosecutors seldom think it rises to the level of criminality. This case, though, is exceptional.

No, it's not a racial thing even though the mob thinks it is. Three of the six officers charged are black. The one officer charged with murder is black.
 
Back
Top Bottom