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Thread: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

  1. #221
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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    Yes, the medical examiner ruled it homicide.
    Doesn't mean a crime was committed, just that death was caused by someone else. Certainly does not support the charges.
    "We have met the enemy and they are ours..." -- Oliver Hazard Perry
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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    You don't need probable cause to chase someone.
    You need a crime in action or suspect one to justify probable cause. Running before a crime is established is not a crime thus.. you need probable cause to chase.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
    Again? You went from claiming that the prosecutor has the authority to decide whether or not the knife was legal, to the prosecutor being responsible for what evidence the jury is allowed to consider, to (now) having the authority to decide what cases to pursue (which is something I'm finally able to agree with).
    Actually it's all the above.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by mac View Post
    Well, they didn't know he had the knife when they started chasing him. So, again, you're not making sense.
    That you think that matter means you are not making sense.

    They had probable cause to chase and detain.
    Had a knife not been found he would have been released and walked away. But a knife believing to be a violation of the law was found and that constitutes the probable cause.





    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    And what you are failing to understand is they had NO probable cause at the time they chased him. They had NO idea he had knife at the point. Making it an illegal arrest.
    This is you not knowing what you are talking about and ignoring the fact that they did.

    Seeing a suspected drug deal with the participants fleeing is probable cause to give chase and detain. During that detention the knife was found.
    Had it not been found he would have been released.





    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Why would the knife violate the law? It would be covered by the Second Amendment.
    That is a different argument from what we are discussing.
    But I am sure you know that and just think you are being funny.





    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    Stop baiting. Your circle of beliefs is far too small and closed off for you to be any kind of accusations like that.

    You are the one who baited with your absurd rhetoric, just as your continued remark is just more of the same and actually baiting.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    that's fine

    you going to be the first volunteer?

    you get 45k annually.....for putting your life on the line daily

    dont make a mistake....they arent allowed

    oh, and the best part.....most of the people you will be responsible for looking after, absolutely hate you, and everything you stand for

    but you are going to sign right up.....right?
    Cops do not put their lives on the line daily. That is complete nonsense. Do they sometimes? Certainly. Daily? No. That's nonsense that the police PR machine feeds the public to justify their bad behavior and special rules that allow cops to skate for things that would land anyone else in prison.

    45K salary? Maybe to start. With OT NYPD patrol officers routinely make 6 figures. Lots of cops live in Nassau and Suffolk counties. Decent houses here start at a quarter million. You do the math. Cops, at least here, are well paid, and typically retire after 20 years regardless of age. That means a typical cop retires in his early forties and collections a good pension for the rest of his life.
    Don't be a grammar nazi - Marcus Aurelius, Meditations, Book 1 #7

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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    They had probable cause to chase and detain.
    Had a knife not been found he would have been released and walked away. But a knife believing to be a violation of the law was found and that constitutes the probable cause.
    Wrong, absolutely 100% wrong. They had no probable cause. To have probable cause according to the US Supreme Court.. is to "where the facts and circumstances within the officers' knowledge, and of which they have reasonably trustworthy information, are sufficient in themselves to warrant a belief by a man of reasonable caution that a crime is being committed.”

    They had no reasonably trustworthy information, i.e. they had no knowledge he was committing a crime.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Wrong, absolutely 100% wrong. They had no probable cause. To have probable cause according to the US Supreme Court.. is to "where the facts and circumstances within the officers' knowledge, and of which they have reasonably trustworthy information, are sufficient in themselves to warrant a belief by a man of reasonable caution that a crime is being committed.”

    They had no reasonably trustworthy information, i.e. they had no knowledge he was committing a crime.
    You are the one who is 100% wrong.

    You are wrong and clearly do not know what you are talking about.
    He had probable cause.

    Not only that, you do not even understand what you read.



    Syllabus

    Petitioner was convicted in a federal district court for a violation of the Liquor Enforcement Act of 1936, on charges of transporting intoxicating liquor into Oklahoma contrary to the laws of that State. He challenged the validity of his conviction because of the use in evidence against him of liquor seized in a search of his automobile without a warrant and allegedly in violation of the Fourth Amendment. At the hearing on petitioner's motion to suppress this evidence, it appeared that one of the federal agents who made the search and seizure had arrested petitioner five months previously for illegally transporting liquor; that he had twice seen petitioner loading liquor into a car or truck in Missouri, where the sale of liquor was legal, and that he knew petitioner had a reputation for hauling liquor. This officer, accompanied by another, recognized petitioner and his car, which appeared to be heavily loaded, going west in Oklahoma not far from the Missouri line. They gave chase, overtook petitioner, and forced his car to the side of the road. Upon interrogation, petitioner admitted that he had twelve cases of liquor in his car, whereupon the officers searched the car, seized the liquor and arrested petitioner.

    Held:

    1. The facts taking place before petitioner made the incriminating statements were sufficient to show probable cause for the search, and the evidence seized was admissible against petitioner at the trial. Carroll v. United States, 267 U.S. 132, followed. Pp. 165-171.

    2. The officer's knowledge that petitioner was engaging in illicit liquor-running was not based wholly or largely on surmise or hearsay; the facts derived from his personal observation were sufficient in themselves, without the hearsay concerning general reputation, to sustain his conclusion concerning the illegal character of petitioner's operations. P. 172.

    3. It was not improper to admit as evidence on the issue of probable cause the fact that the officer had arrested the petitioner several months before for illegal transportation of liquor, although the identical evidence was properly excluded at the trial on the issue of guilt. Pp. 172-174. [p161]

    4. Probable cause exists where the facts and circumstances within the officers' knowledge, and of which they have reasonably trustworthy information, are sufficient in themselves to warrant a belief by a man of reasonable caution that a crime is being committed. Pp. 175-176.

    165 F.2d 512, affirmed.

    Petitioner was convicted in the federal district court for a violation of the Liquor Enforcement Act. The Court of Appeals affirmed. 165 F.2d 512. This Court granted certiorari. 333 U.S. 841. Affirmed, p. 178.


    https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/338/160


    His personal observations are within his knowledge. Duh!

    He observed what appeared to be a drug deal where the suspects then ran.
    That was probable cause to give chase, and detain.
    Upon detainment they found no drugs but did find what was believed to be an illegal knife. That is probable cause for arrest.


    Stop talking about things you know nothing about.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle
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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    Cops do not put their lives on the line daily. That is complete nonsense. Do they sometimes? Certainly. Daily? No. That's nonsense that the police PR machine feeds the public to justify their bad behavior and special rules that allow cops to skate for things that would land anyone else in prison.

    45K salary? Maybe to start. With OT NYPD patrol officers routinely make 6 figures. Lots of cops live in Nassau and Suffolk counties. Decent houses here start at a quarter million. You do the math. Cops, at least here, are well paid, and typically retire after 20 years regardless of age. That means a typical cop retires in his early forties and collections a good pension for the rest of his life.
    My personal experience is that police do put their lives on the line. They are " the line " between law abiding citizens protecting them from the all too often heinous actions of an immoral society. I've heard the bagpipes played one too many times for those who lost their lives in the line of duty. Just read this morning that another cop was shot in NYC in the face by some punk who couldn't even run away because his baggie pants were down around his knees.

    In every profession there are good and bad and the bad can cause great damage to others even death whether it be a doctor, lawyer, traffic air controller, judge, prosecuting attorney, police etc..

    Here's a thought, why not let the justice system play out. How about letting all the facts without emotion be brought forth before making a judgment.

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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    No. These cops broke the law and the rules set up to protect prisoners, so they are being charged with crimes.
    It seems extremely improbable that 6 officers were equally responsible for not securing a seatbelt (even if that can be proven to be the cause of death). That seems like blaming the entire framing crew equally for one of them not securing a scaffold properly. Perhaps the prosecutor's plan (strategy?) is to get some of the charged officers to testify against at least one of the other officers.
    “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists to adapt the world to himself.
    Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” ― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

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    Re: City State’s Attorney Says Freddie Gray’s Arrest Illegal, Charges Officers

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius46 View Post
    .

    45K salary? Maybe to start. With OT NYPD patrol officers routinely make 6 figures. Lots of cops live in Nassau and Suffolk counties. Decent houses here start at a quarter million. You do the math. Cops, at least here, are well paid, and typically retire after 20 years regardless of age. That means a typical cop retires in his early forties and collections a good pension for the rest of his life.
    New York, and a few other big union cities in blue states are the exception, not the rule for police wages. And even these exceptions are going to change as runaway pensions are bankrupting these places.

    That aside, police wages and benefits in most red state jurisdictions are far from New York level wages, even accounting for cost of living differences.

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