• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

Morning Maggie :2wave:

How did you come to these "conclusions"? As far as I know, we haven't seen the autopsy, or the any of the police investigation, so the only way anyone can come to any conclusion is through their own speculation about what they think happened....Remember Ferguson? The instant 'conclusion' was that Wilson shot Brown when his hands were in the air...Which led to the totally false "hands up, don't shoot'' meme, that was proven false....

If Freddie Grey's injuries were caused by police in the apprehension after his running, and resisting arrest, then yes the evidence will show that, and they are accountable, but if they happened in the van on the way to jail, then we must look at the transport driver, as he is the only one responsible for the custody of Grey at that point...

Criminalizing policing only serves to ensure that police will not do their jobs. Do we have "bad cops" in the system? Yes, and they should be weeded out, but to use such blanket accusation in demonizing police in general I don't think is correct. We need police doing their jobs in our communities, the alternative we saw last Monday night. Those weren't images that I think make most people feel safe.

BTW, Now that leaks from the report turned over yesterday to the States atty, seem to say that Grey died from head injuries sustained in the back of the van, and NOT from the arrest, and that is consistent with the report from the other prisoner being transported, that Grey sounded like he was trying to injure himself....I personally don't know, but I haven't made any conclusions yet either.

Hi, J-Mac. Good to see you!

If we all here on DP waited for "just the facts, ma'am," it wouldn't be half as fun. Ha! With the information I have right now, I'm jumping to conclusions, true enough. But something happened to this guy, and I don't believe for one NY minute that he did it to himself in an over-zealous attempt to show police brutality. What we do know is that he wasn't properly restrained in the van and that at least one unauthorized stop was made. At least two cops put him in the van, unrestrained. I doubt the driver of the van was the lone LEO in the transport. Could have been, I suppose.

This was a horrendous incident. Society needs to make sure there's no white-washing and that at the very least! LEO mistakes made here, if any, cost jobs. And if criminal intent is found? Prosecution. We simply can't give coppers carte blanche. We talk about paying the consequences for one's behavior all the time. They must be held accountable. If big IF it's appropriate.
 
Black communities are being destroyed, & it has nothing to do with " Hands up dont shoot " Police brutality is not a false narrative & how would you know anyway. Do you live there, are you black, have you gone into the heart of the matter. They are ignored by both parties, being forced out of their homes, so their land can be bought for pennies on the dollar. Police use their neighborhood like an ATM, & act like an occupying force.



Right Wing rhetoric double speak that ignores facts & what is really going on.
MLK: A riot is the language of the unheard

Shall I continue.
Hmm, that's still not working, is it? Are you really quoting yourself? How are you going about creating these replies? Just trying to help you post intelligibly. At the moment I can't tell what's a quote, from whom and what is your original content.
 
:doh
That is not a confession.
That is a statement that may or may not bear out.

No that would be you focusing on this as I never denied it what the Commissioner said.
But way not to recognize that in your convoluted and extremely biased attempt to cast aspersions.

It's very much akin to confession. Would you prefer I had said admitted, acknowledged, conceded, affirmed, concluded, accepted. The police chief would know this, you buddy, not so much. Why would the police chief say that upon review, officers violated the departments code of ethics, if in fact they hadn't. That's really stupid. I think you should take Dave's advice a few posts back.
 
Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

BALTIMORE — A prisoner sharing a police transport van with Freddie Gray told investigators that he could hear Gray “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself,” according to a police document obtained by The Washington Post.

[...]
Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was



Maybe folks were to quick to blame police.

I got tired of embarrassing you in the other thread. I'm going to do it in here now.

Freddie Gray Update: New Speculation On His Death, And Peaceful Protests : The Two-Way : NPR

He added that another detainee who was riding in the van told police that Gray was "still moving around ... kicking and making noises" until the van reached the police station.

That second detainee rode in the police van on the other side of a metal partition that divides its cargo space. When he was picked up, Gray was already in the van.

Local news WJZ-TV reports that Donta Allen, 22, was that second man – and that he came forward Thursday out of concern over how his comments were being portrayed by both the police and the media.

"When I was in the back of that van it did not stop or nothing. All it did was go straight to the station, but I heard a little banging, like he was banging his head," Allen said. " I didn't even know he was in the van until we got to the station."

Saying his words have been distorted by recent reports and that he doesn't think Gray hurt himself intentionally, Allen also told a WJZ reporter, "The only reason I'm doing this is because they put my name in a bad state."

Allen, who was reportedly taken into custody for a minor offense and was not charged with a crime, also spoke to WBAL TV. He told the station that when he got into the van, he didn't know Gray was already there. He said he heard "a little banging for like four seconds."
 
Quote Originally Posted by fenton View Post
Again, left wingers claim they represent the poor and disadvantaged, but in reality ignore the plight of people in the inner city continusly in favor for stupid false narratives and catch phrases that can fit on a bumper sticker.

This I agree with, many Dem's like Obama are fake liberals. But it does imply Rep's are better, when they ignore the plight of people more than Dem's. As for catch phrases do you remember this one " Its Morning Again America" I still laugh at this one, by the ACTOR pres.

" Hope and Change " has done what for the Black community ? They're disproportionately affected by the policies that have led to the worst " recovery " in our Nations History. Hateful is ignoring the fact unemployment is disproportionately higher for young Black males and most inner city areas like St Louis have been run by Democrats for years.

Not sure what Obama has done for the Black community, I'm not black & don't live there, but I will take a guess here, & say you don't either. I didn't vote for Obama, I voted for the Green Party & McCain. But your statement ignores the fact that GWB put us in the financial crisis, & affected poor & black communities the most. Now I know Obama didn't do **** about it. But what people should be pissed off the most about is that he let the crooks go. Including GWB.

More right wing BS that leaves out parts of the whole story.
 
Last edited:
Summer, there are cases all the time of freak accidents that occur where people injure and kill themselves. I was watching a forensic files case where they were investigating how a man had died. They discovered that he had sliped on the tile floor, hit his head on a broom handle which caused a fracture and an open head would. Which he passed out from and eventually blead to death from while he was passed out. Things happen. It seems that this could be one of many things. Freak accident, maybe he was moving around in the van and he slipped or fell while the van was moving and hit his head. Or its possible he was trying to injure himself in order to stay in the hospital rather then stay in the jail until his trial. Its also possible that something may have occurred that we don't know about yet because we don't have all the evidence and there was some type of police brutality. Right now, we really don't know. But don't let that stop people from burning business, killing cops, destroying and stealing property and harassing innocent civilians.
Absolutely agree that there are incidents of freak accidents. That does indeed happen from time to time. But...

...as in the example you provided, freak accidents usually have a single injury, not multiple injuries that are all severe and spaced at spots unlikely to be related from the same accident all around the body.
 
No that would be you and anyone else that claims such nonsense.
Use of force does not indicate wrongdoing on the part of Police.

Man, there's a couple of you guys that are slippery like pigs on this. WHO pray tell has criticised police use of force, hmm? People are talking about and complaining about excessive use of force, you know, the kind that would violate the departments code of conduct that the police chief has indeed acknowledged within his department!
 
I mean by the release of this testimony that the prisoner heard Gray banging against the van wall, the immediate assumption is that he managed to sever his own neck. This is particularly questionable when there is a definite record of spinal cord injuries done by this particular police force. I would argue that it's less likely that he severed his own neck in such an extraordinary way when there is a record like that that is publicly known.

Got it! We agree.
 
Hi, J-Mac. Good to see you!

If we all here on DP waited for "just the facts, ma'am," it wouldn't be half as fun. Ha! With the information I have right now, I'm jumping to conclusions, true enough. But something happened to this guy, and I don't believe for one NY minute that he did it to himself in an over-zealous attempt to show police brutality. What we do know is that he wasn't properly restrained in the van and that at least one unauthorized stop was made. At least two cops put him in the van, unrestrained. I doubt the driver of the van was the lone LEO in the transport. Could have been, I suppose.

This was a horrendous incident. Society needs to make sure there's no white-washing and that at the very least! LEO mistakes made here, if any, cost jobs. And if criminal intent is found? Prosecution. We simply can't give coppers carte blanche. We talk about paying the consequences for one's behavior all the time. They must be held accountable. If big IF it's appropriate.

I agree...for the most part that is....Just a small point, in Balto, the "paddy wagon" drivers are unaccompanied....So, they are the sole officer at the time during transport with the prisoners...But, I agree, if the cops are to blame then they must be held accountable, however, we are NOT going to get to true "Justice" when everyone from the Mob, to the Mayor already has their minds made up about what they will accept in terms of the facts.
 
Hmm, that's still not working, is it? Are you really quoting yourself? How are you going about creating these replies? Just trying to help you post intelligibly. At the moment I can't tell what's a quote, from whom and what is your original content.


No, its a bit mixed up. Fenton asked me to tell him what was hate in his post. So I just copied & pasted his words. Then he quoted his own words, then I quoted them again. Thanks for the help.

Sorry for being a butcher.
 
Excon,

I'm just going to let your own video (post #222) debunk your weak attempt at a reply to my commentary (your post #221).



Mr. Allen (prisoner #2) who was picked up and transported to the police station with Mr. Gray made it very clear that:

1) He heard very little during the ride from Mr. Gray except 4-seconds of "little banging", but that the ride to the police station was quiet otherwise. This clearly would contradict the position you apparently stand behind:



Investigators = homicide detectives? Maybe.

Which brings me to...

2) He gave a completely different story to homicide detectives than what he told local police.

I'd be curious to know why Mr. Allen would tell homicide detectives one thing but local police something different (if anything at all since per the interview he didn't tell the police "nothin'".)

Furthermore, per the video news clip you provided, the autopsy concluded that there was "no evidence that Mr. Gray hit his head against anything on his own". (This does support Mr. Allen's account of what he told the reporter per the video you provided.) Moreover, per the autopsy Mr. Gray's neck injury was "akin to a injury suffered in a car accident. It needed that amount of force".

Something happened in the police van between the time Mr. Gray was picked up but prior to Mr. Allen being picked up . The question is what?

Apparently Allen is afraid for his life as he's now in the middle between the protestors and the police.

CBS News said:
“I had two options today right, either come and talk to y’all and get my credibility straight with ya’ll and not get killed by these [expletive] or not tell a true story,” Allen added. “The only reason I’m doing this is because they put my name in a bad state.”

The Other Man In The Van With Freddie Gray Breaks His Silence « CBS Baltimore
 
Stop your absurdity joko.

It was obtained during an investigation. Not as a self serving statement.
There presently is no known reason to disbelieve what he said. That is your problem for not recognizing that.

I'm sure a jury will see it that way.
 
That's why you bring in the Maryland State Police to investigate and later the FBI as well.

No, law enforcement investigating law enforcement, lol. A system used by many European countries of total independence would be preferred.
 
So I see that the medical examiner has stated the injuries were caused when the police slammed him into the van (probably hitting that sharp corner j-motivator has been talking about) and that a head injury matches a bolt in the van!!!!!!!!!
 
Whatever bs you have to tell yourself to cling to your ignorance about the police and how they treat the poor.

It isn't about "the poor"

It isn't about "black".

It's about how police treat people.

Police abuse happens to rich people, it happens to middle class people, it happens to rural ranchers, it happens to white women, it happens all over the country, to all kinds of people, every day.

The problem isn't that the police hate poor black kids.

The problem is that police have been given far too much authority, for far too long, have assumed an us v. them mentality of "whatever it takes, as long as I go home to my family at night", have been inundated with military hardware and training because the idiots in America are afraid of "the terrorism", and have it in their heads that they're "sheepdogs" and "operators" rather than average Joes who get paid to wear a badge and serve the public.

Keep making this about poor black kids and you'll keep watching poor black kids die at the hands of police.

Make this about what it really is, and demonstrate for the changes that need to occur in police culture nationwide, and maybe we'll all get somewhere.
 
So I see that the medical examiner has stated the injuries were caused when the police slammed him into the van (probably hitting that sharp corner j-motivator has been talking about) and that a head injury matches a bolt in the van!!!!!!!!!

Thats so dishonest.

The medical examiner said nothing of the sort.

Its irresponsible rhetoric like that ( the police slammed into the van ) that perpetuates a false narrative of systemic racism in the Police force and leads to riots and outrage before the facts are known.
 
It isn't about "the poor"

It isn't about "black".

It's about how police treat people.

Police abuse happens to rich people, it happens to middle class people, it happens to rural ranchers, it happens to white women, it happens all over the country, to all kinds of people, every day.

The problem isn't that the police hate poor black kids.

The problem is that police have been given far too much authority, for far too long, have assumed an us v. them mentality of "whatever it takes, as long as I go home to my family at night", have been inundated with military hardware and training because the idiots in America are afraid of "the terrorism", and have it in their heads that they're "sheepdogs" and "operators" rather than average Joes who get paid to wear a badge and serve the public.

Keep making this about poor black kids and you'll keep watching poor black kids die at the hands of police.

Make this about what it really is, and demonstrate for the changes that need to occur in police culture nationwide, and maybe we'll all get somewhere.
I so want to agree with this. And yes, you are correct that police abuse happens to people from all walks of life, but it also seems to be happening disproportionately to blacks. I get media sensationalism and manipulation is involved to a point. But even in less mainstream sources I'm not seeing anywhere near the numbers of police abuse against whites, Asians, or even Hispanics, that I see against blacks. Part of me is thinking that if the police abuse were more equal that somebody somewhere would have made this claim AND publicized specific incidents as examples, but I just haven't seen it.
 
Thats so dishonest.

The medical examiner said nothing of the sort.

Its irresponsible rhetoric like that ( the police slammed into the van ) that perpetuates a false narrative of systemic racism in the Police force and leads to riots and outrage before the facts are known.

Quote me referring to this as racism. I'm criticising a documented pattern of abuse and corruption in the Baltimore police department. You should stop defending the filth.
 
Thats so dishonest.

The medical examiner said nothing of the sort.

Its irresponsible rhetoric like that ( the police slammed into the van ) that perpetuates a false narrative of systemic racism in the Police force and leads to riots and outrage before the facts are known.

The medical examiner found that Gray’s neck was most likely broken when he slammed into the back of the police transport van, sources who were briefed on the findings told the ABC affiliate.
 
Quote me referring to this as racism. I'm criticising a documented pattern of abuse and corruption in the Baltimore police department. You should stop defending the filth.

Post the Medical examiners report and bold the part where the Medical examiner said the cops " slammed him into the van ".

Go ahead. Or where you just jumping to conclusions to justify your own personal prejudices against LEOs ?

You would think people would have learned after Ferguson not to jump to conclusions. You can see with your own eyes the damage and destruction that leads to, right ?
 
Make this about what it really is, and demonstrate for the changes that need to occur in police culture nationwide, and maybe we'll all get somewhere.

The question is what it really is. The problems with the demonstrations is that they have always occurred when someone was killed while resisting arrest. Obviously, people shouldn't be killed for resisting arrest but, if police harassment of blacks actually exists on a widespread basis, then the demonstrations would be more effective when they relate to black harassment of people who haven't committed a crime. Some police departments could be racial but I find it hard to believe that the Baltimore police department is. It is composed of about 50% black officers and is managed by a black commissioner and mayor. So the riots didn't convince me of anything other than that angry people wanted to engage in destroying their neighborhood. Are they angry about police harassment? I doubt it. I suspect they are angry about a host of things, many of which they have brought on themselves. If it is true then they need to handle communicating that in a more effective manner.

The sad truth is government has never been able to solve poverty. It would be great if it could but it can't.
 
Post the Medical examiners report and bold the part where the Medical examiner said the cops " slammed him into the van ".

Go ahead. Or where you just jumping to conclusions to justify your own personal prejudices against LEOs ?

You would think people would have learned after Ferguson not to jump to conclusions. You can see with your own eyes the damage and destruction that leads to, right ?

What does that mean, that you think it likely that Freddy slammed himself into the van.
 
Post the Medical examiners report and bold the part where the Medical examiner said the cops " slammed him into the van ".

Go ahead. Or where you just jumping to conclusions to justify your own personal prejudices against LEOs ?

You would think people would have learned after Ferguson not to jump to conclusions. You can see with your own eyes the damage and destruction that leads to, right ?

Sources said the medical examiner found Gray's catastrophic injury was caused when he slammed into the back of the police transport van, apparently breaking his neck; a head injury he sustained matches a bolt in the back of the van.

Read more: Law enforcement sources say Freddie Gray suffered head injury in police transport van | WJLA.com
Follow us: @ABC7News on Twitter | WJLATV on Facebook
 
I so want to agree with this. And yes, you are correct that police abuse happens to people from all walks of life, but it also seems to be happening disproportionately to blacks.

That it's happening disproportionately to blacks isn't the issue.

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't and it just gets a lot more demonstrator and media attention when it does because the social justice crusaders and race hustlers find that they have something to glom on to that will really get them some traction.

It doesn't matter WHO it is happening to.

What matters is that it could, given the right (wrong?) set of circumstances, happen to YOU (any of us) just as easily as it happened to Freddy Gray.

I'm an upper-middle-class, middle age, white guy, a veteran, with a graduate degree, couple cars, big house, vacation property, the polar opposite of Freddy Gray, and I've had a gun held to my head by a cop because he got scared at a traffic stop.

I wasn't threatening him, I wasn't mouthing off to him, I just couldn't find my registration so I moved more quickly than he would have liked in a direction he wasn't expecting and he drew down on me.

It was daytime, in broad daylight, on a road in the suburbs, I was in wool slacks, button down, tie, driving a late model car, looking like the college educated professional I am.

If he had been just a *little* more skittish he *could* have shot me.

And if he did he would have been investigated by the prosecutor he plays golf with, he would have claimed that he was "afraid for his life" and the fact that "he wanted to go home to his wife at the end of his shift" would have taken precedence over all other considerations, it's likely that the other cop at the scene would have been the first the throw up the "thin blue line" and then the union would have gotten involved and the whole department would have gathered around the coward and protected him (because God forbid the peer out their own the way we do in the military).

And that last part is where the problem lies.

There's virtually no accountability when a cop goes off the rails.

They're "investigated" by their own.

They're defended by their union.

Their "brothers" will lie, cheat, and steal in order to keep one of their own protected.

We have rules that apply to us that don't apply to them.

And the people in this country, especially the gun-owning, God-fearing conservatives who would like you to believe that they're Billy Bad Ass, are so afraid of their own Gad damned shadows that they willingly abdicate more and more of our freedom to these jackbooted agents of an oppressive state every single day.
 
Back
Top Bottom