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Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

We probably won't see the facts because the only one, who knows what actually happened is dead. I don't think the cops ride chaperone in the paddy wagon with the prisoners.

We haven't heard much from any experts, but I would like to know if it is even possible to gain enough momentum to break a person's neck in such a confined area.
I venture to say it is not.
 
Your claims are again biased bs.
Use of force does not indicate wrongdoing on the part of Police.

Excon, me darlin', you're in the toilet bowl, just reach up and pull the chain.
 
I've personally conducted research involving secondary confessions. I've written and presented research on secondary and false confessions. I've read hundreds of articles from academic, news, and government sources. I've assisted with the review of police reports evaluating eyewitness and secondary confession evidence for expert testimony presented at trial. I believe I am qualified to differentiate between a witness statement and the statement of a secondary informant (e.g., a snitch).

So which one do you believe this is, I notice you still don't answer. Instead you seem to be having the need to blow smoke up your own ass, which doesn't even sound credible based on your posts around here.
 
How would you know the police chief is telling the truth or merely cow towing to political correctness? There have been police chiefs, who have thrown their officers under the bus if it meant keeping their jobs. If these officers violated the code of conduct, why hasn't more evidence come out to that effect? It still seems like their actions are being kept under wraps.

Hahahaha hahahaha, the baltimore police chief is lying. Ok, well either way, seems to me the baltimore police department has a credibility problem, but then the Sun has only been DOCUMENTING THAT FOR YEARS.
 
To the bolded. The police chief confessed that officers VIOLATED DEPARTMENT CODE OF CONDUCT!!
:doh
That is not a confession.
That is a statement that may or may not bear out.

You're the one deficient of credibility.
No that would be you focusing on this as I never denied it what the Commissioner said.
But way not to recognize that in your convoluted and extremely biased attempt to cast aspersions.
 
I can't believe the lack of skepticism on this prisoner's sudden claim, especially considering said prisoner couldn't see what Gray was doing. I mean, does no one here find it reasonable to question this claim. It's especially questionable with the fact that this particular police force already has a past record of "unusual injuries" of other suspects—several of which resulted in a suspect's neck being severed and paralyzing him and another separate case where a plumber died from the paralysis done by a "rough ride" neck injury.

Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries - Baltimore Sun

It think it's pretty clear that this has passed the point of just being isolated "coincidences" when so many suspects have suffered from neck injuries that led to paralysis done by the same police force.
 
Indeed . Since 1900 some 52 people have been killed by police in England. Thats less than half the number killed by US law enforcement in March 2015 alone (111). Even allowing for six fold the population disparity thats quite a statistic ! :shock:

As has been proven a hundred times in reference to the reports cited in your links, the "per capita" conclusion is false, and contrived. All your cites are using data that is incomplete, or non-specific. Nothing of real substance can be concluded from the information.

Your 52 people killed by police in England is equally false.




The British advocacy group Inquest has looked at police incidents in England and Wales going back to 1990. By its count, there were 55 police shooting deaths between 1990 and the present. The group reports another 1,453 deaths that had some connection to contact with police. However, the causes range from someone dying of a drug overdose while at a police station, to car thieves killing themselves in a wreck, to suicide while in custody, to excessive use of force by officers.

There simply is no way to tease out the details. Comparing police shootings to the American data is the only reliable approach.

The only other country in the United Kingdom for which we found hard numbers was Northern Ireland. Between April 2008 and September 2014, roughly a six-year period, members of the Police Force of Northern Ireland discharged their weapons nine times. However, there is no data on whether any deaths resulted.

During the times of "The Troubles" from 1968 to about 2000 when separatists, generally Catholics, and unionists, generally Protestants, battled over whether Northern Ireland should break away or remain part of the United Kingdom, there were over 3,000 deaths. Some of those were at the hands of the police.​

Again, you are welcome to present flawed data from advocacy groups anxious to manipulate data and present flawed information, but don't expect them to be taken as anything other than activist propaganda.

Are there more deaths at the hands of police in general, than in the U.K.? I would have to agree that is true. Is the picture you're painting highly biased and slanted? Absolutely true, as the facts prove.

Again, at the very least, you don't have to worry about it, other than to push your agenda.
 
For a " thoughtful leftist " you sure are coming off as uncaring and cold hearted.

I mean, why would you offer up such a superficial explanation without acknowledging the decades of poverty that these inner city areas have had to contend with ?

The riots started because of the decades of Democrat policies that have left inner city areas with a disproportionate amount of crime, poverty and dependence.

The riots started because a false narrative of " Police brutality " has been reinforced exponentially by Politicians, activist and idiots looking to capitalize on the destruction and violence that now occurs on a whim.

After " Hands up dont shoot " was proven to be a lie the Obama administration sent out a list of rules to the LEOs on how not to be a " racist ".

What about the people that now have to live in a burned out neighborhood ? What about the underlying issues that created such desperation, corruption and lawlessness ?

Alll ignored by the Obama administration and Eric Holde because to address it would mean acknowledging that their policies or policies that they support created this mess in the first place.

You really think one is better than the other. GWB put us all in debt & Obama is keeping us there. Same difference.

The riots started because a false narrative of " Police brutality "????????? Are you paying any attention to this, or do you get the story straight for Sean Hannity.

The city payed out 6 mil last year for police brutality. false narrative LOL

As the people in Baltimore are saying. What is more important property or human life. The police, city, & Fox News think property. Were do you stand?
 
We probably won't see the facts because the only one, who knows what actually happened is dead. I don't think the cops ride chaperone in the paddy wagon with the prisoners.

Really, the culpable cops don't know what happened. The baltimore police chief has acknowledged in the past that his officers have violated department conduct rules. And, just since 2011, the department has paid out 5.7 million due to lost law suits. Think credibility ok.
 
We'll this sure does.

At a news conference Friday at police headquarters, Commissioner Anthony W. Batts said that officers violated department policies while Gray was in their custody.

Baltimore police acknowledge mistakes in Freddie Gray's death - Baltimore Sun

Stop denying it and your own credibility.
Something is wrong with your thought process here.
I have denied nothing. And it is your credibility that is suffering with this nonsense you are presenting.

The Commissioner believing policy was violated does not mean that the Officers cause the injuries.
Do you or do you not understand that?
Don't bother answering as it is obvious you don't.
 
Excon, me darlin', you're in the toilet bowl, just reach up and pull the chain.

No that would be you and anyone else that claims such nonsense.
Use of force does not indicate wrongdoing on the part of Police.
 
I can't believe the lack of skepticism on this prisoner's sudden claim, especially considering said prisoner couldn't see what Gray was doing. I mean, does no one here find it reasonable to question this claim. It's especially questionable with the fact that this particular police force already has a past record of "unusual injuries" of other suspects—several of which resulted in a suspect's neck being severed and paralyzing him and another separate case where a plumber died from the paralysis done by a "rough ride" neck injury.

Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries - Baltimore Sun

It think it's pretty clear that this has passed the point of just being isolated "coincidences" when so many suspects have suffered from neck injuries that led to paralysis done by the same police force.

What do you mean asking whether or not people here question the prisoners testimony?????
 
Your claims are again biased bs.
Use of force does not indicate wrongdoing on the part of Police.

The bodycount of those your law enforcement kills relative to those of other developed nations surely does. Your police resort to the use of lethal force far too soon and far too often, even when its entirely innappropriate (the example in the video I linked of the clearly unarmed guy shot dead for being naked being a fine example) This is something you clearly do not want to acknowledge
 
What do you mean asking whether or not people here question the prisoners testimony?????
I mean by the release of this testimony that the prisoner heard Gray banging against the van wall, the immediate assumption is that he managed to sever his own neck. This is particularly questionable when there is a definite record of spinal cord injuries done by this particular police force. I would argue that it's less likely that he severed his own neck in such an extraordinary way when there is a record like that that is publicly known.
 
I can't believe the lack of skepticism on this prisoner's sudden claim, especially considering said prisoner couldn't see what Gray was doing. I mean, does no one here find it reasonable to question this claim. It's especially questionable with the fact that this particular police force already has a past record of "unusual injuries" of other suspects—several of which resulted in a suspect's neck being severed and paralyzing him and another separate case where a plumber died from the paralysis done by a "rough ride" neck injury.

Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries - Baltimore Sun

It think it's pretty clear that this has passed the point of just being isolated "coincidences" when so many suspects have suffered from neck injuries that led to paralysis done by the same police force.

I heard reported this morning that a prominent doctor stated that people with asthma are at a greater risk of having seizures.
He further stated, that a violent enough seizure can in fact break your own neck.
What if Gray was having a violent seizure in the back of the police van?

Anyway, so far this appears to be an anonymous source, and probably should be treated as such, but still, plausible at least.

So the police are investigating, and turning the results over to the prosecutor, who'll likely call for a Grand Jury, or, if she's smart, she'll turn the entire thing over to the state attorney general (she's been in office a mere 100 days, and I don't think stems from the legal or LE communities).

Yeah, I can see the repeat here. The GD doesn't find anything to charge the cops with, and there'll be even more rioting. Hopefully, this time the mayor will call in the National Guard before these results are made public, to preempt any additional rioting before is even starts. 'Space to destroy' indeed. :doh
 
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We haven't heard much from any experts, but I would like to know if it is even possible to gain enough momentum to break a person's neck in such a confined area.
I venture to say it is not.

Just dropping in, and maybe reading out of context, but someone's neck can be snapped if one can stand next to or behind someone. Just ask Special Forces.
 
I heard reported this morning that a prominent doctor stated that people with asthma are at a greater risk of having seizures.
He further stated, that a violent enough seizure can in fact break your own neck.
What if Gray was having a violent seizure in the back of the police van?

Anyway, so far this appears to be an anonymous source, and probably should be treated as such, but still, plausible at least.

Heard that as well. Although it's all just wag'ing, the seizure explanation would answer lots of questions.
 
The British advocacy group Inquest has looked at police incidents in England and Wales going back to 1990. By its count, there were 55 police shooting deaths between 1990 and the present. The group reports another 1,453 deaths that had some connection to contact with police. However, the causes range from someone dying of a drug overdose while at a police station, to car thieves killing themselves in a wreck, to suicide while in custody, to excessive use of force by officers.


Link ?

There simply is no way to tease out the details. Comparing police shootings to the American data is the only reliable approach.

How so ?

The only other country in the United Kingdom for which we found hard numbers was Northern Ireland. Between April 2008 and September 2014, roughly a six-year period, members of the Police Force of Northern Ireland discharged their weapons nine times. However, there is no data on whether any deaths resulted.

During the times of "The Troubles" from 1968 to about 2000 when separatists, generally Catholics, and unionists, generally Protestants, battled over whether Northern Ireland should break away or remain part of the United Kingdom, there were over 3,000 deaths. Some of those were at the hands of the police.

But that was a civil war ! Hardly comparable :roll:

Again, you are welcome to present flawed data from advocacy groups anxious to manipulate data and present flawed information, but don't expect them to be taken as anything other than activist propaganda.

Groups advocating what exactly ?
 
The bodycount of those your law enforcement kills relative to those of other developed nations surely does.
:doh No it doesn't.
Do you or do you not understand that we have different laws that those other nations?




This is something you clearly do not want to acknowledge
This argument is laughable as well as dumb.
One incidence means nothing to your overall claim.
Especially as that man was aggressively charging the and did not follow the Officers commands.

So if you want to discuss that case, start the thread. It is irrelevant here.
 
Again; There may have been a reason for not doing so and not doing so does not automatically mean they are responsible for his injuries.

They are culpable for breaking protocol and endangering the life of their prisoner. They need a damned good excuse as to why they broke it, and if it cannot be defended they are certainly partially responsible in the least.

Again no.
GPS is not going to tell you if it was swerving or hitting every pot-hole and bump. We have witnesses for that.

Look, referring to the GPS is arguing nonsense. The route, time, and distance is already known.

As you were already informed, the time-lime is already online.

And we have a witness who states the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically".

Path is important because it can show if they went out of their way to extend rides or go down certain streets that were not the best way to get to the precinct. And look at this.

Freddie Gray death: New narratives emerge - CNN.com

Deputy Commissioner Kevin Davis also revealed for the first time that there was an additional stop made between the time Gray was placed in the transport van and when he arrived at the police department's Western District building.

Where's that on your time line?

A detainee who can not sit may just be a valid reason.

Perchance, and if they can demonstrate legitimate reason for breaking protocol and endangering the life of their restrained, and cuffed prisoner, then they can do so.

The witness did not say kicking and screaming all the way.
He said it sounded like he was “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself".

And yet you yourself cited this from the 24th.

From the 24th.
Batts said another man who was in the van during the tail end of Gray's ride told investigators that Gray was "was still moving around, that he was kicking and making noises" up until the van arrived at the station. Batts said the man also said the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically."
Freddie Gray death: Baltimore police prisoner transport under scrutiny - World - CBC News
[/QUOTE]

There are reports that the dude, who could not see Gray, was attempting to hurt himself, and your post which says that he was kicking and making noise till the arrived at the precinct.

Yes you did make an assumption.
"nothing can exonerate the actions of the police." is an assumption.


:doh
And nothing say they were the cause either.

First off, what I said was

So, we're still sorta in the thick of it here, nothing can exonerate the actions of the police.

Which is not assumption, that statement was referring to the additional information about the possibility of Gray trying to hurt himself (he should have been properly restrained). Nothing there exonerates the police. And of course nothing that we no yet condemns them, but I never said it did. The investigation is still pending.

:doh
 
Fair enough, but it's foolish to not recognize that the poor are preyed upon because they don't have the resources to fight back. Not just by cops but by all manner of power and money hungry entities. Especially the police, justice, and penal systems we currently have. So it is about bad cops, in that those cops take their aggressions out on the impoverished because they know they can get away with it. But that same cop might be a true hero in another part of town servicing an upscale citizen. Add to that the aforementioned support system, that traps so many of the poor never be able to advance in anyway reasonable way.

I am not sure what your point is.

That it sucks to be poor? No doubt it does.

But rioting is not the answer.

And my point is that the riots are due to almost entirely the poverty of the areas, not the police corruption of those areas.
And when the media blames the cops for the riots, then that deflects the blame from the real cause - the poverty.

It amazes me that the poverty cause seems to be almost ignored. All people talk about are the bad cops. That is missing the point. It's like people have given up on fixing the poverty and now they are just whining about the results of that poverty. In this case, bad policing.

If you have a poor area then you will have more police corruption...that is obvious and unavoidable. If people expect to have non-corrupt, perfect policing in poor areas...forget it - not realistically possible. Unless you build Robocops, policing in 'ghettos' will always be FAR more corrupt then in decent economic areas. Always has been that way and it probably always will be.

Bad cops are not the main problem - poverty is. Get rid of the latter and you will probably get rid of the former.
 
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How gullible do hey think people are? Wait a week and then announce "oh uhh he totally broke his own neck on purpose!"
 
:doh No it doesn't.
Do you or do you not understand that we have different laws that those other nations?

Dead at the hands of police is dead in whatever nation you choose to look at

This argument is laughable as well as dumb.
One incidence means nothing to your overall claim.
Especially as that man was aggressively charging the and did not follow the Officers commands.

Yes but its funny cases like this just seem to keep happening over and over again yet only in the US isn't it ? :cool:
 
Link ?



How so ?



But that was a civil war ! Hardly comparable :roll:



Groups advocating what exactly ?


Liberal blog: U.S. cops killed more people in one month than U.K. cops killed last century | PunditFact

I could dig into the actual information cited, but I'm not really interested.

As to civil war, why are your trying to push that there is a "war" on by US Cops, but you don't want to count your "war"? So you want to qualify deaths at the hands of police?

The fact is, the "per capita" claim is completely false, as it draws assumptions from a fraction of the police agencies, and the data that is available is comingled with other reported deaths that aren't related. There are thousands of police agencies across the US that haven't experienced a police shooting in years, yet they also don't report to the data base activists and control groups like those behind the stats your pushing like to use.

As to your final question, let's not play games. You've been around long enough, and the links you've provided are right out of the anti-police/anti gun play book. The Center for Research on Globalization was founded by a nutjob who believes governments knew about the pending Indian Ocean Tsunami and purposefully kept it from people.

Given the links you provided are the most commonly used to push your narrative, I would suggest you have used them before, and you have likely received similar responses as mine, pointing out the flawed nature of their conclusions. If that is the case, it's clear you have decided to ignore those factual responses to continue to push your agenda. If that is not the case, then what I have provided in response should give rise to a bit of caution before using this flawed data to make a point.

I have admitted there is probably no doubt more police shootings occur in the US, than in the UK.
 
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