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Thread: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Notwithstanding? Wut? What he heard is first hand information. Don't confuse that with any characterization he attributed to what he heard.

    A person who hears banging and yelling would be first hand information that they heard banging and yelling. That would included the witness and at least the driver.
    Oh...

    I asked because per your post #599 you came across as if there was an actual first-hand account of what happened from an actual eye witness. Instead, we're still at the ear witness' first-hand testimony of what he believes he heard. But other than this alleged video confession from Donta Allen that has neither been verified nor aired, there's really nothing new here.

    Ok...just wanted some clarification on this first-hand accounting claim.

    Carry on.

    EDIT: One thing that continues to trouble me about Donta Allen's public "clarification of events" to the media was his reason for "coming clean".

    I had two options today right, [1]either come and talk to y’all and get my credibility straight with ya’ll and not get killed by these f***ers or [2]not tell a true story,” Allen said. “The only reason I’m doing this is because they put my name in a bad state.”
    Makes me wonder who was trying to kill him? Fellow drug/gang members or local police? And who are "they"? Police or media? What surprises me more is no one has actually questioned this before.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 07-04-15 at 06:10 PM.
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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Reasonable doubt is reasonable.
    "Opportunity does not come knocking. It is usually running down the street, you have to chase and tackle it." - Sheriff David Clarke, Milwaukee County.

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You still confuse a secondhand source with a firsthand source.

    No, I haven't confused anything. You have. Then you tried to change the goal posts becasue you simply refuse to admit the reality that the author clearly attributed the quote to the witness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Your ego simply won't let you examine this objectively.
    You are only speaking of your own behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You are wrong. You have been wrong for months.
    And again, this is you as I haven't been wrong at all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You twist and duck and dive and avoid the basic argument blatantly - you have no firsthand source, and your report of someone else's second or third hand account is that much farther removed from any kind of evidence.
    Not once have you been able to refute the fact that the author attributed the quote to the witness. So instead all you have done is twist and deflect to avoid the reality of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    When I see or hear this tape of Donta Allen saying what he allegedly said, we can have a discussion of the actual words and phrasing used. Until then, YOU ARE SPECULATING.
    Wrong as usual.
    No, I am not speculating. That is a dishonest assertion on your part.
    I am relying on the information that we have been informed of.

    Again. "Even the Prosecutor has acknowledged that those "snippets" were made by the witness." Which is just another thing that you dishonestly choose not to recognize.


    Your whole post is nothing more than an example of dishonesty.
    You argue agaisnt that which wasn't said and then refuse to acknowledge the different possibilities that I pointed out and then state the total opposite of what has occurred, and are just continuing to deflect from being wrong about your previous premature assertion of "letting" as well.
    Truly sad.
    Last edited by Excon; 07-04-15 at 11:09 PM.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I asked because per your post #599 you came across as if there was an actual first-hand account of what happened from an actual eye witness.
    [...]
    Ok...just wanted some clarification on this first-hand accounting claim.
    A first hand account is a first hand account, regardless of whether it is a an ear, or eye witness.
    And when what is being spoken about is what the witness heard, that is what is being spoken about. How you think I came across is all on you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But other than this alleged video confession from Donta Allen that has neither been verified nor aired, there's really nothing new here.
    Dismissal?

    How he supposedly characterized it, sounding like a "mad man" is significant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    EDIT: One thing that continues to trouble me about Donta Allen's public "clarification of events" to the media was his reason for "coming clean".

    Makes me wonder who was trying to kill him? Fellow drug/gang members or local police? And who are "they"? Police or media? What surprises me more is no one has actually questioned this before.
    You can let that bother you all you want.
    It is still the reason why his denial/clarification is suspect.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    No, I haven't confused anything. You have. Then you tried to change the goal posts becasue you simply refuse to admit the reality that the author clearly attributed the quote to the witness.


    You are only speaking of your own behavior.


    And again, this is you as I haven't been wrong at all.


    Not once have you been able to refute the fact that the author attributed the quote to the witness. So instead all you have done is twist and deflect to avoid the reality of it.


    Wrong as usual.
    No, I am not speculating. That is a dishonest assertion on your part.
    I am relying on the information that we have been informed of.

    Again. "Even the Prosecutor has acknowledged that those "snippets" were made by the witness." Which is just another thing that you dishonestly choose not to recognize.


    Your whole post is nothing more than an example of dishonesty.
    You argue agaisnt that which wasn't said and then refuse to acknowledge the different possibilities that I pointed out and then state the total opposite of what has occurred, and are just continuing to deflect from being wrong about your previous premature assertion of "letting" as well.
    Truly sad.
    So, you've seen the tape then?
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    A first hand account is a first hand account, regardless of whether it is a an ear, or eye witness.
    Come now, Excon. You're the one who made the claim:

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    The prosecutor has already acknowledged to the Court that the witness made the previous statements that were reported on. You know, those that he denied making.

    But she is also trying to control the narrative. When she stops, the first hand information will be made available.
    So, all I asked was what first-hand account would that be? YOU spoke as if there was some new accounting of events that took place on Gray's side of the van, an account that had been witnessed by someone else whose identity has never been made public. Did you give a false impression here? I'd say you did since we're right back to the initial ear-witness whose assumptions of what he heard could have been anything. Could it have been Gray kicking the wall of the van? Could it have been him stumping on the floor? Could it have been his unconscious body bouncing around? You don't know precisely what happened or what caused those noises anymore than I do. But when you make such claims as "the first hand information will be made available," you come across as if NEW information (or a new accounting from an actual eye-witness to events) will be made public. And so far, nothing has come about to substantiate your claim. Still, I'll wait until all the facts come out on this case. Perhaps so should you.

    And when what is being spoken about is what the witness heard, that is what is being spoken about. How you think I came across is all on you.
    Perhaps you should pick your words alittle more carefully and maybe they won't be misinterpreted. But when someone asks for clarification, the prudent thing to do would be to provide clarity, not deflect.

    As to the rest of your commentary, it's all hearsay and conjecture anyway at this point since no one saw what actually happened and what one person believes they heard can be interpreted in several different ways. But like I said, we'll know more when the details start to come out at trial. Meanwhile, carry-on.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 07-05-15 at 08:15 AM.
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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Come now, Excon. You're the one who made the claim:



    So, all I asked was what first-hand account would that be? YOU spoke as if there was some new accounting of events that took place on Gray's side of the van, an account that had been witnessed by someone else whose identity has never been made public. Did you give a false impression here? I'd say you did since we're right back to the initial ear-witness whose assumptions of what he heard could have been anything. Could it have been Gray kicking the wall of the van? Could it have been him stumping on the floor? Could it have been his unconscious body bouncing around? You don't know precisely what happened or what caused those noises anymore than I do. But when you make such claims as "the first hand information will be made available," you come across as if NEW information (or a new accounting from an actual eye-witness to events) will be made public. And so far, nothing has come about to substantiate your claim. Still, I'll wait until all the facts come out on this case. Perhaps so should you.



    Perhaps you should pick your words alittle more carefully and maybe they won't be misinterpreted. But when someone asks for clarification, the prudent thing to do would be the clarify, not deflect.

    As to the rest of your commentary, it's all hearsay and conjecture anyway at this point since no one saw what actually happened and what one person believes they heard can be interpreted in several different ways. But like I said, we'll know more when the details start to come out at trial. Meanwhile, carry-on.
    Not only that, but we don't actually know what this witness actually said. These "snippets" have not been released for public consumption yet.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    So, you've seen the tape then?

    Just more lame deflection from you.

    Did I say I did?


    That is all you have done here is deflect.

    Nor do we need to see it to discuss what has been reported to be on it, or the "snippets" that the prosecutor acknowledged were the witness's.





    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Come now, Excon. You're the one who made the claim:
    Come now?
    I see you are again failing to understand what was actually said.
    That is again, on you.
    A first hand account is a first hand account, regardless of whether it is a an ear, or eye witness.

    For some odd reason you even failed to understand the context of what was being discussed. (٭)


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    So, all I asked was what first-hand account would that be?
    Which was lame.
    Here we are speaking about the reports about what he said he heard and you can't figure out that we are still speaking about the same damn thing.

    You also failed to pay attention to that which the response was said in reply. Had you paid attention, you also would have known it was in reference to that. (٭)


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    YOU spoke as if there was some new accounting of events that took place on Gray's side of the van,

    No I did not.
    This is you not paying attention and inventing crap to believe.

    Even though I made no such claim, as for "new"? Again, acting like a "mad man" is new to what he is reported to have said, just as the information that his statement is actually on video is new.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    an account that had been witnessed by someone else whose identity has never been made public. Did you give a false impression here? I'd say you did since we're right back to the initial ear-witness whose assumptions of what he heard could have been anything.
    No, that was you making things up instead of paying attention.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    But when you make such claims as "the first hand information will be made available," you come across as if NEW information (or a new accounting from an actual eye-witness to events) will be made public.
    And again, this is you not having paid attention to what was said, the context of the discussion or to that which it was said in reply. (٭)


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    And so far, nothing has come about to substantiate your claim.

    What claim was that?
    That the author attributed the quote to the witness? That one? iLOL
    That has already been established.

    It certainly couldn't be the reply I made to GR's post, as that was a factual statement.
    ٭ Anybody reading that would understand it was in reference to her controlling the narrative by attempting to keep the actual accounts (which are first hand) from being released. That is, anybody but a person who is not paying attention to what is being discussed.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Still, I'll wait until all the facts come out on this case. Perhaps so should you.
    Deflection of the worst kind. Not only is it deflection, but hypocrisy as well.
    We are more than capable of discussing the information that has been made known to us. If you want to wait I would suggest removing yourself from discussing any and all topics unless official release of the information critical to the discussion has been made.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Perhaps you should pick your words alittle more carefully and maybe they won't be misinterpreted. But when someone asks for clarification, the prudent thing to do would be to provide clarity, not deflect.
    I haven't deflected in the slightest.

    Perhaps you should pay far more careful attention to that which you are responding instead of making crap up as you continue to be wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    As to the rest of your commentary, it's all hearsay and conjecture
    Apparently you haven't paid attention at all throughout this topic.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    Could it have been Gray kicking the wall of the van? Could it have been him stumping on the floor? Could it have been his unconscious body bouncing around?
    No to all of them.
    Obviously you are not paying attention to what has been reported. The last, "bouncing around", is eliminated by the fact that he said it was a "smooth ride".
    Then purposely banging your head sounds differently than stomping and kicking. A head imparts a hollow sound and is not protected by footwear which would deaden any sound from kicking. Nor did he have much leverage to do any forceful kicking being shackled as he was.

    Regardless, it is possible to differentiate, and as reported, he made that distinction.
    How he differentiated, if it has not already been done, will be discovered. Whether that is believable will be another matter.
    For all we know, he has had multiple rides in the back and based what he heard off of his own banging and kicking experience or from being next to another who has done it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    You don't know precisely what happened or what caused those noises anymore than I do.
    1. We are arguing what has been reported he heard. That is all we need to know for this portion of the discussion.
    2. Banging your head sounds differently than stomping your feet or kicking the wall. If you do not understand that, please find a place that has a similar set up, ask to view one of these vans and do your own experimentation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    what one person believes they heard can be interpreted in several different ways.
    Not in this case.
    Yelling and banging is yelling and banging.
    Clarifying that it sounded like a "mad man" is not the same as "a little banging."
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    No to all of them.
    Obviously you are not paying attention to what has been reported. The last, "bouncing around", is eliminated by the fact that he said it was a "smooth ride".
    Then purposely banging your head sounds differently than stomping and kicking. A head imparts a hollow sound and is not protected by footwear which would deaden any sound from kicking. Nor did he have much leverage to do any forceful kicking being shackled as he was.

    Regardless, it is possible to differentiate, and as reported, he made that distinction.
    How he differentiated, if it has not already been done, will be discovered. Whether that is believable will be another matter.
    For all we know, he has had multiple rides in the back and based what he heard off of his own banging and kicking experience or from being next to another who has done it.


    1. We are arguing what has been reported he heard. That is all we need to know for this portion of the discussion.
    2. Banging your head sounds differently than stomping your feet or kicking the wall. If you do not understand that, please find a place that has a similar set up, ask to view one of these vans and do your own experimentation.


    Not in this case.
    Yelling and banging is yelling and banging.
    Clarifying that it sounded like a "mad man" is not the same as "a little banging."
    Why must you always phrase your counter arguments by questioning someone's intelligence, i.e, "if you do not understand..."? I find that to be most insulting and I'm sure I'm not the only one. You'd be better off (and sound far less like a pompous ass) if instead you said, "if you disagree...". A little politeness and common courtesy goes a long way. Don't disrespect me and I won't disrespect you. Agreed?

    To that, thanks for adding to the debate.

    EDIT: Interesting...your opening reply, "Not all of them" referring to the head banging. So, there is some slight concession from you here. Very good. There's hope for you yet.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

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