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Thread: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    idk if anyone has asked yet, but I am curious about how I could distinguish between the sounds of general banging about and the sounds of someone trying to injure themselves.
    Is the sound of self-injury similar to the sound of grass?
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Do you understand that makes the affidavit a second-hand source, and as such is not quoting Allen? A quote is a first-hand account. The affidavit written by the officer is swearing to the officer's version of events, not Allen's.
    This is you ignoring that his words were quoted in what the Officer swore.

    It is also you ignoring that this affidavit, and what the Commissioner let us know the witness said, has far more credibility than what the witness now says.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    This is you ignoring that his words were quoted in what the Officer swore.

    It is also you ignoring that this affidavit, and what the Commissioner let us know the witness said, has far more credibility than what the witness now says.
    You are ignoring that this is what the officer says Allen says happened, not what Allen says happened.

    When asked to corroborate, Allen refuted the statement.

    If I swear that you said something, and you refuted it when asked directly, then I would say your account of what you said is probably more accurate than my account.

    I suppose the officers could provide a tape of Allen saying those things, that would be something. If the officers could provide a sworn statement from Allen, that would be something. But all they have is a secondhand account of what Allen said, written by an officer.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    idk if anyone has asked yet, but I am curious about how I could distinguish between the sounds of general banging about and the sounds of someone trying to injure themselves.
    Is the sound of self-injury similar to the sound of grass?
    I brought that up ages ago, but luckily Excon pointed out that my thoughts were irrelevant and he had won whilst I had lost. I think that you're precisely correct and there's no way the other man could have known what he was hearing. That's why it is so imperative to wait until the facts come in before you start acting like you know what happened.

    However, I place no importance whatsoever on the witness. We don't know anything about him and he was only in the van for a few minutes. It's possible that he's given different stories about what happened - or the police lied about it or were mistaken about it. I don't know. But I have completely disregarded anything he said from the beginning. He probably did hear some banging, but it's definitely not enough for me to base any opinion on.
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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    I brought that up ages ago, but luckily Excon pointed out that my thoughts were irrelevant and he had won whilst I had lost.
    He's getting quite good at assertion. That's probably because he practices so often.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio View Post
    I think that you're precisely correct and there's no way the other man could have known what he was hearing. That's why it is so imperative to wait until the facts come in before you start acting like you know what happened.

    However, I place no importance whatsoever on the witness. We don't know anything about him and he was only in the van for a few minutes. It's possible that he's given different stories about what happened - or the police lied about it or were mistaken about it. I don't know. But I have completely disregarded anything he said from the beginning. He probably did hear some banging, but it's definitely not enough for me to base any opinion on.
    I don't think that self-injury is the kind of thing which has a well-known, distinctive sound.
    I get why the statement has received the attention it has.
    I may be wrong.

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    What do you find interesting about that?


    He had no cause to lie to the authorities and nothing provided shows that.

    His current statements do show a reason to lie. He himself voiced it.

    Or are you unable to distinguish the difference between the two being made under different circumstances?
    He claims to have not said it in the first place. Some piece of paper claims he said it.

    A piece of paper he didn't write.

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    idk if anyone has asked yet, but I am curious about how I could distinguish between the sounds of general banging about and the sounds of someone trying to injure themselves.
    While it is possible to discern in various environments, we do not known how he said he knew, or even if he did say how he knew.
    But now that it appears that he isn't going to admit to saying anything, as such, we may never know.
    So what we are left with is that he said it when there was no reason to doubt his statements, versus his denial now which has no credibility.





    Quote Originally Posted by Mustachio​ View Post
    I brought that up ages ago, but luckily Excon pointed out that my thoughts were irrelevant and he had won whilst I had lost.
    Still being dishonest I see.
    No, that is not what happened.
    What I have said is that it is the evidence we have to work with.
    And the win lose thing is all yours.





    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo​ View Post
    You are ignoring that this is what the officer says Allen says happened, not what Allen says happened.
    You keep getting told yet refuse to understand.

    So all you do is necessitate the repeating of what you are ignoring.

    His (the witness's) statement was included in the request for the warrant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo​ View Post
    When asked to corroborate, Allen refuted the statement.
    Why you don't pay attention and keep arguing in circles will never be known.
    This is still you ignoring that what he says now has no credibility.





    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    He claims to have not said it in the first place.
    And again.

    He had no cause to lie to the authorities and nothing provided shows that.

    His current statements do show a reason to lie. He himself voiced it.

    Or are you unable to distinguish the difference between the two being made under different circumstances?


    Unless what he says matches, nothing he changed is credible. Do you really not understand that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Deuce View Post
    Some piece of paper claims he said it.

    A piece of paper he didn't write.

    He was interviewed by investigators and gave a statement.

    The application for the search warrant included his statement.





    Besides the previous information about the investigators finding the knife was in violation of the law, we now have one of the Officers trying to force the SA's hand.



    BALTIMORE (AP) — One of the Baltimore police officers who arrested Freddie Gray wants the police department and prosecutor to produce a knife that was the reason for the arrest, saying in court papers that it is an illegal weapon.

    The city's top prosecutor, Marilyn Mosby, said Friday in charging the officer and five others that the knife was legal under Maryland law, meaning they had arrested Gray illegally.

    The motion was filed Monday by attorneys for Officer Edward Nero in Baltimore District Court.


    Officer charged in Gray death contends arrest was legal
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    He's getting quite good at assertion. That's probably because he practices so often.


    I don't think that self-injury is the kind of thing which has a well-known, distinctive sound.
    I get why the statement has received the attention it has.
    "Ah yes, a moderately loud banging precisely 4 feet, 3 inches from the floor of the van with a downward motion of 22 degrees. That would obviously be the sound of a man safely secured in his seat trying to sever his own spine." It sounds pretty ridiculous, doesn't it? I remember around the time W Bush went into Iraq, there were some satellite images that somehow were supposedly trucks carrying WMDs. My conservative friends touted that as proof even though the trucks turned out to be absolutely nothing and everybody forgot it ever happened. I'm sure everybody has done it but there's a time to call it a day and some of us just won't do it.
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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    You keep getting told yet refuse to understand.

    So all you do is necessitate the repeating of what you are ignoring.

    His (the witness's) statement was included in the request for the warrant.
    All you have to do to put this point to rest is provide the quote in Allen's own words. Not the police officer's words attributed to Allen, but Allen's own words.

    It appears that you don't understand what a quote is. Or you are intentionally being obtuse. Either way, you are displaying a sickening level of ignorance concerning the nature of sworn testimony, beginning at the very definition of what sworn testimony actually is.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document says

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    All you have to do to put this point to rest is provide the quote in Allen's own words. Not the police officer's words attributed to Allen, but Allen's own words.
    Still ignoring what was said and provided.
    It appears that you don't understand what a quote is or are intentionally ignoring them.
    His words were quoted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Either way, you are displaying a sickening level of ignorance concerning the nature of sworn testimony, beginning at the very definition of what sworn testimony actually is
    This applies to you. His words were quoted.
    Last edited by Excon; 05-06-15 at 09:57 AM.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
    Aristotle

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