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Thread: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveFagan View Post
    Excon, me darlin', you're in the toilet bowl, just reach up and pull the chain.
    No that would be you and anyone else that claims such nonsense.
    Use of force does not indicate wrongdoing on the part of Police.
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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by CRModeration View Post
    I can't believe the lack of skepticism on this prisoner's sudden claim, especially considering said prisoner couldn't see what Gray was doing. I mean, does no one here find it reasonable to question this claim. It's especially questionable with the fact that this particular police force already has a past record of "unusual injuries" of other suspects—several of which resulted in a suspect's neck being severed and paralyzing him and another separate case where a plumber died from the paralysis done by a "rough ride" neck injury.

    Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries - Baltimore Sun

    It think it's pretty clear that this has passed the point of just being isolated "coincidences" when so many suspects have suffered from neck injuries that led to paralysis done by the same police force.
    What do you mean asking whether or not people here question the prisoners testimony?????
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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Your claims are again biased bs.
    Use of force does not indicate wrongdoing on the part of Police.
    The bodycount of those your law enforcement kills relative to those of other developed nations surely does. Your police resort to the use of lethal force far too soon and far too often, even when its entirely innappropriate (the example in the video I linked of the clearly unarmed guy shot dead for being naked being a fine example) This is something you clearly do not want to acknowledge

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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    What do you mean asking whether or not people here question the prisoners testimony?????
    I mean by the release of this testimony that the prisoner heard Gray banging against the van wall, the immediate assumption is that he managed to sever his own neck. This is particularly questionable when there is a definite record of spinal cord injuries done by this particular police force. I would argue that it's less likely that he severed his own neck in such an extraordinary way when there is a record like that that is publicly known.

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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by CRModeration View Post
    I can't believe the lack of skepticism on this prisoner's sudden claim, especially considering said prisoner couldn't see what Gray was doing. I mean, does no one here find it reasonable to question this claim. It's especially questionable with the fact that this particular police force already has a past record of "unusual injuries" of other suspects—several of which resulted in a suspect's neck being severed and paralyzing him and another separate case where a plumber died from the paralysis done by a "rough ride" neck injury.

    Freddie Gray not the first to come out of Baltimore police van with serious injuries - Baltimore Sun

    It think it's pretty clear that this has passed the point of just being isolated "coincidences" when so many suspects have suffered from neck injuries that led to paralysis done by the same police force.
    I heard reported this morning that a prominent doctor stated that people with asthma are at a greater risk of having seizures.
    He further stated, that a violent enough seizure can in fact break your own neck.
    What if Gray was having a violent seizure in the back of the police van?

    Anyway, so far this appears to be an anonymous source, and probably should be treated as such, but still, plausible at least.

    So the police are investigating, and turning the results over to the prosecutor, who'll likely call for a Grand Jury, or, if she's smart, she'll turn the entire thing over to the state attorney general (she's been in office a mere 100 days, and I don't think stems from the legal or LE communities).

    Yeah, I can see the repeat here. The GD doesn't find anything to charge the cops with, and there'll be even more rioting. Hopefully, this time the mayor will call in the National Guard before these results are made public, to preempt any additional rioting before is even starts. 'Space to destroy' indeed.
    Last edited by eohrnberger; 04-30-15 at 10:39 AM.
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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lovebug View Post
    We haven't heard much from any experts, but I would like to know if it is even possible to gain enough momentum to break a person's neck in such a confined area.
    I venture to say it is not.
    Just dropping in, and maybe reading out of context, but someone's neck can be snapped if one can stand next to or behind someone. Just ask Special Forces.


    Thank you, Quazi!

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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    I heard reported this morning that a prominent doctor stated that people with asthma are at a greater risk of having seizures.
    He further stated, that a violent enough seizure can in fact break your own neck.
    What if Gray was having a violent seizure in the back of the police van?

    Anyway, so far this appears to be an anonymous source, and probably should be treated as such, but still, plausible at least.
    Heard that as well. Although it's all just wag'ing, the seizure explanation would answer lots of questions.


    Thank you, Quazi!

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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    The British advocacy group Inquest has looked at police incidents in England and Wales going back to 1990. By its count, there were 55 police shooting deaths between 1990 and the present. The group reports another 1,453 deaths that had some connection to contact with police. However, the causes range from someone dying of a drug overdose while at a police station, to car thieves killing themselves in a wreck, to suicide while in custody, to excessive use of force by officers.


    Link ?

    There simply is no way to tease out the details. Comparing police shootings to the American data is the only reliable approach.
    How so ?

    The only other country in the United Kingdom for which we found hard numbers was Northern Ireland. Between April 2008 and September 2014, roughly a six-year period, members of the Police Force of Northern Ireland discharged their weapons nine times. However, there is no data on whether any deaths resulted.

    During the times of "The Troubles" from 1968 to about 2000 when separatists, generally Catholics, and unionists, generally Protestants, battled over whether Northern Ireland should break away or remain part of the United Kingdom, there were over 3,000 deaths. Some of those were at the hands of the police.
    But that was a civil war ! Hardly comparable

    Again, you are welcome to present flawed data from advocacy groups anxious to manipulate data and present flawed information, but don't expect them to be taken as anything other than activist propaganda.
    Groups advocating what exactly ?

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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    The bodycount of those your law enforcement kills relative to those of other developed nations surely does.
    No it doesn't.
    Do you or do you not understand that we have different laws that those other nations?




    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    This is something you clearly do not want to acknowledge
    This argument is laughable as well as dumb.
    One incidence means nothing to your overall claim.
    Especially as that man was aggressively charging the and did not follow the Officers commands.

    So if you want to discuss that case, start the thread. It is irrelevant here.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    re: Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was ‘trying to injure himself,’ document [W:384]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Again; There may have been a reason for not doing so and not doing so does not automatically mean they are responsible for his injuries.
    They are culpable for breaking protocol and endangering the life of their prisoner. They need a damned good excuse as to why they broke it, and if it cannot be defended they are certainly partially responsible in the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Again no.
    GPS is not going to tell you if it was swerving or hitting every pot-hole and bump. We have witnesses for that.

    Look, referring to the GPS is arguing nonsense. The route, time, and distance is already known.

    As you were already informed, the time-lime is already online.

    And we have a witness who states the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically".
    Path is important because it can show if they went out of their way to extend rides or go down certain streets that were not the best way to get to the precinct. And look at this.

    Freddie Gray death: New narratives emerge - CNN.com

    Deputy Commissioner Kevin Davis also revealed for the first time that there was an additional stop made between the time Gray was placed in the transport van and when he arrived at the police department's Western District building.
    Where's that on your time line?

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    A detainee who can not sit may just be a valid reason.
    Perchance, and if they can demonstrate legitimate reason for breaking protocol and endangering the life of their restrained, and cuffed prisoner, then they can do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    The witness did not say kicking and screaming all the way.
    He said it sounded like he was “banging against the walls” of the vehicle and believed that he “was intentionally trying to injure himself".
    And yet you yourself cited this from the 24th.

    From the 24th.
    Batts said another man who was in the van during the tail end of Gray's ride told investigators that Gray was "was still moving around, that he was kicking and making noises" up until the van arrived at the station. Batts said the man also said the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically."
    Freddie Gray death: Baltimore police prisoner transport under scrutiny - World - CBC News
    [/QUOTE]

    There are reports that the dude, who could not see Gray, was attempting to hurt himself, and your post which says that he was kicking and making noise till the arrived at the precinct.

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Yes you did make an assumption.
    "nothing can exonerate the actions of the police." is an assumption.



    And nothing say they were the cause either.
    First off, what I said was

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So, we're still sorta in the thick of it here, nothing can exonerate the actions of the police.
    Which is not assumption, that statement was referring to the additional information about the possibility of Gray trying to hurt himself (he should have been properly restrained). Nothing there exonerates the police. And of course nothing that we no yet condemns them, but I never said it did. The investigation is still pending.

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