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Thread: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

  1. #21
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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hm. Maybe this means more to me because Social Media Analysis has a more precise meaning in my RL.
    Oh? So what exactly is "Social Media Analysis?" Who did the analysis? What were their metrics? How are they tracking IPs and poster's locations? What are the content of the posts in question? What are the posts saying?

    None of this is available. We have no way to know if the research organization has any credibility, because we don't know who they are.


    the company doesn't want to be named because it does this sort of thing for the government, meaning probably our military/intelligence structures. This is part of how we find and kill bad guys.
    I'm sorry, but that's fairly ridiculous. We don't know who it is, which means they could make up any excuse

    We should also note that if they're doing intelligence work (e.g. an NSA subcontractor), then that data is probably classified, and releasing this data would be a serious legal violation, and they'd probably be identifiable to whoever is in charge of that contract. Isn't wild speculation about anonymous sources fun?


    You can, actually. That is what calling for a Purge means. No one is suggesting an ancient roman dining habit.
    No, you can't, because the article did NOT say that the person calling for the purge was one of the alleged 20-50 ringleaders. Read it again.

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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    Social Media Analysis is a lot more than just aggregating "likes" and filtering for multiple locations. What they are describing are individuals actively inciting / taking part in violence.
    None of that is obvious from the article.

    But let's just play this out: suppose it is the case that people are organizing violence. I'm not sure I understand the point. Consider, for example, the peasant revolts of 1524-5 (I bring this comparison because there's unusually good documentation of this revolt). The revolts were organized. And of course, Charles the Vth and Phillip of Hesse were furious that the peasants were organized. But our moral judgment about the revolts really has nothing to do with whether they were organized or not.

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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    None of that is obvious from the article.

    But let's just play this out: suppose it is the case that people are organizing violence. I'm not sure I understand the point. Consider, for example, the peasant revolts of 1524-5 (I bring this comparison because there's unusually good documentation of this revolt). The revolts were organized. And of course, Charles the Vth and Phillip of Hesse were furious that the peasants were organized. But our moral judgment about the revolts really has nothing to do with whether they were organized or not.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Oh? So what exactly is "Social Media Analysis?"
    Social Media Analysis in the government (vice business) sphere is the utilization of information gleaned from Social Media in a manner similar to Social Network Analysis, and also as an additional stream within OSINT reporting.

    Who did the analysis?
    Apparently a company that sells Social Media Analysis tools to or services to the government.

    What were their metrics?
    By which you mean what did they measure? Social media activity. Probably facebook and twitter, although there are plenty of secondary tiered social media platforms for the US.

    How are they tracking IPs and poster's locations?
    Most folks don't know how to strip the metadata out of their uploaded content. For those who know what they are doing, it's actually not terribly dificult.

    What are the content of the posts in question? What are the posts saying?
    They appear to be organizing or taking part in lawless activity.

    None of this is available. We have no way to know if the research organization has any credibility, because we don't know who they are.
    I'm not aware of anyone trying to reach a barrier of proof necessary for a guilty verdict. The evidence matches what we've seen thus far, what we've seen from previous protest movements, and what was observed on the ground at both locations, as linked earlier.

    I'm sorry, but that's fairly ridiculous. We don't know who it is, which means they could make up any excuse
    Sure. Maybe they did it to cover up the government's role in the 9/11 attacks. Or maybe they did it so that Scully wouldn't find out the truth about the Smoking Man and Aliens.

    There are multiple companies that do this for the government - a few years ago, C2/C4I systems were all the rage. Now it's social media analysis and the like.

    We should also note that if they're doing intelligence work (e.g. an NSA subcontractor), then that data is probably classified, and releasing this data would be a serious legal violation, and they'd probably be identifiable to whoever is in charge of that contract.
    Well, no. Classification indicates government ownership of information. Everything you upload to the internet is public material, available (legally) for anyone to look at. Plenty of security contractors work with the DOD (which NSA falls under) and civilian law-enforcement; the authorities can change with the mission, but for a private company, if you post it on social media, they can exploit it without any classification whatsoever.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    You just read perfectly intelligible English. Contained therein was an argument, which seems cogent to me. My claim is twofold: first, your evidence doesn't support your conclusions. Second, suppose for the sake of discussion that it does: you're expressing what at base is a certain amount of moral outrage--outside forces manipulating tragic circumstances to push a violent and harmful political agenda, which they should not do. But your outrage is subjunctively based on evidence that the violence is organized--which doesn't support any moral position about it. Violence can be both organized, even stirred up, and still both justified and morally obligatory. I gave an example of such violence well known in history to prove the point.

    Argue against that if you can.

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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    You just read perfectly intelligible English. Contained therein was an argument, which seems cogent to me.
    As near as I can tell, the analogies presented had no coherent way of mirroring each other. You might as well have discussed the Taiping Rebellion or the Haymarket Riot.

    My claim is twofold: first, your evidence doesn't support your conclusions
    It does. What it does not do is prove my conclusions.

    Second, suppose for the sake of discussion that it does: you're expressing what at base is a certain amount of moral outrage
    Not really. This part of the discussion interests me as a targeteer - I've broken up violent networks for a living before, and so I find the concept of using some similar methodologies to break up semi-professional violent instigator networks in the US intriguing.

    outside forces manipulating tragic circumstances to push a violent and harmful political agenda, which they [I]should not do.
    Well, they shouldn't. But, more to the point of the thread, we should start using their own communication against them to catch them and stop them from doing so.
    But your outrage is subjunctively based on evidence that the violence is organized
    My outrage here is pretty much non-existent, and if it was here, wouldn't be based on organization, but rather intent.

    Violence can be both organized, even stirred up, and still both justified and morally obligatory. I gave an example of such violence well known in history to prove the point.
    A) you incredibly misread the thread
    B) you clearly reached for whatever you had recently read about or seen, and tried to shoehorn it in. It's a completely fail analogy.

    Argue against that if you can.
    I've participated in organized violence - the organization of violence is in and of itself morally neutral. It is simply that that is also completely incidental the discussion in this thread.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Social Media Analysis is....
    ...not quite a real thing. What little of it exists is usually oriented towards advertisers, not government snoops. I have no idea why you're spouting buzzwords at me, since it's evident that you're not very familiar with this stuff.


    By which you mean what did they measure? Social media activity. Probably facebook and twitter, although there are plenty of secondary tiered social media platforms for the US.
    What I mean is: "We have no clue whatsoever what they are measuring, because we don't know who they are, what they're doing, what criteria they use, if they have an agenda," and so on.


    Most folks don't know how to strip the metadata out of their uploaded content....
    I'm pretty sure that serious professional agitators (left and right) know how to scrub most of their data, know to use burner phones, know to turn off their phones when they don't want to be tracked, and so on. Don't forget, they have known for years now that they're being observed and watched by law enforcement. They know what data is usually public, that it can be observed by law enforcement, that law enforcement repeatedly infiltrates protest movements, even religious organizations, e.g.:
    http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.1049592


    They appear to be organizing or taking part in lawless activity.
    Nothing in the article indicates that is the case.


    Sure. Maybe they did it to cover up the government's role in the 9/11 attacks. Or maybe they did it so that Scully wouldn't find out the truth about the Smoking Man and Aliens.
    lol

    I'm not advocating any sort of conspiracy theories. I'm just pointing out that you are accepting anonymous data with no skepticism whatsoever. Plus, they're tipping off Fox exclusively, which suggests a bias and/or agenda.

    Or, to put it another way: Let's say Mother Jones reported on an anonymous tip from an agency that refused to be identified. They claim that a Social Media Analysis shows that the FBI has infiltrated the Black Lives Matter movement, and is pushing people to act illegally. Would you accept that uncritically? (I wouldn't.)


    Well, no. Classification indicates government ownership of information. Everything you upload to the internet is public material....
    Re-read what I wrote.

    If they are using public information, that's not likely to include any location data or real names, unless those people are exceptionally careless or stupid (or a combination thereof). Keep in mind that IP addresses and location data are not usually available via social networks, and personally identifiable data isn't usually accessible even by advertisers. Similarly, Facebook and Twitter strip EXIF info and other metadata (including GPS location info) from uploaded photos.

    If they are NOT using public information (e.g. they have access to data gathered by the NSA), THEN they are very likely leaking classified information.

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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    As near as I can tell, the analogies presented had no coherent way of mirroring each other. You might as well have discussed the Taiping Rebellion or the Haymarket Riot.
    They seem to share relevant properties. Ulrich von Hutten, for example, came into the southern Holy Roman Empire to help train the peasants and, to some extent, to stir them up. Ditto Thomas Muntzer. The fact that this happened in no way keeps us from seeing the revolts as justified.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    It does. What it does not do is prove my conclusions.
    I don't think so. The findings presented in the article are consistent with too many other hypotheses. If it could be shown, for instance, that no similar such social media links existed between Ferguson and any other American city besides Baltimore, then I'd agree it supports your position.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    Not really. This part of the discussion interests me as a targeteer - I've broken up violent networks for a living before, and so I find the concept of using some similar methodologies to break up semi-professional violent instigator networks in the US intriguing.
    Well, if all you're saying is that, as a matter of strategy, those who wish to break up the violence should look into this in order to achieve their goals, then sure, I agree. But I'm not sure how much wiser anyone is after that point is made--seems fairly obvious, and ultimately, trivial.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    Well, they shouldn't. But, more to the point of the thread, we should start using their own communication against them to catch them and stop them from doing so.
    Why should we? I thought you were concerned only with the strategic dimensions of this problem.

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    Re: Social Media Analysis suggests links between Baltimore and Ferguson violence

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I've been waiting for someone to do something like this. Mix in some facial recognition software, and you can start highlighting individuals in the act, too.



    This is where LE should focus. Find these people, and by breaking up their network, you can get rid of the instigators who turn protests violent.
    I'd have to agree. There absolutely no need for professional race rioters. In fact, there is no need to riot, if you ask me.

    Black cop shoots white guy. So where's the resulting riots, violence and destruction? Nada.

    Just too much to expect the same? I don't think so. I'd think it racist to expect different as well as to allow different.
    You know. Same standards for everyone?
    Last edited by eohrnberger; 04-30-15 at 01:04 PM.
    Disinformation campaign? The Russian collusion meme pushed by the 'news' media, behaving as a political propaganda organ, hell bent to destroy a legitimately elected president to implement his agenda per the votes of the same electorate. Reference The Big Lie Reference Goebbels

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