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Thread: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Obama didn't start food stamps, housing assistance or subsidies for "everything". There is absolutely no causation between welfare programs and criminality. However, there is a causation issue when discussing poverty and criminality. Which is what he discussed.
    Greetings, Hatuey.

    I am not blaming him for the safety nets that are in place, since it's been law for a long time, and certainly needed. But what I don't understand is how poverty leads to criminality. By the world's standards, our poor are considered wealthy. They have cars, TVs, nice clothing and good food to eat. If our poor are envious of what others have, that's a personal problem. There are no good excuses for destroying what other people have worked for just because you're angry or envious, or feel a wrong has been done to you. It's a moral failing, IMO, but the entire world seems to be sinking into the same morass, and our leaders worldwide don't seem to know how to handle it, so what can we expect? Sad...

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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, Hatuey.

    I am not blaming him for the safety nets that are in place, since it's been law for a long time, and certainly needed. But what I don't understand is how poverty leads to criminality. By the world's standards, our poor are considered wealthy. They have cars, TVs, nice clothing and good food to eat. If our poor are envious of what others have, that's a personal problem. There are no good excuses for destroying what other people have worked for just because you're angry or envious, or feel a wrong has been done to you. It's a moral failing, IMO, but the entire world seems to be sinking into the same morass, and our leaders worldwide don't seem to know how to handle it, so what can we expect? Sad...
    A good portion of the poor don't have cars, nice clothing, or good food to eat. TVs sure, but you can find a TV on the side of the road anymore right? Other than that your post isn't really saying anything than "Nanana boo boo to bad so sad" and doesn't have one bit of analysis of the situation. What causes a lot of this amongst poor black communities is how they are treated not just by the police, but by the rest of society, how their neighborhoods that many of them grew up in grow to be neglected and worthless overtime, while the rest of the surrounding neighborhoods spring up. A lot of what happened though, especially yesterday, I think came from youth that just generally can be angry. I was angry all the time for no reason when I was a kid, these kids have a reason and they don't know how to channel it properly, or they do and the schools are shut down for a few days like somehow that will make the situation better.
    "We’re going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share. In theory, some of those loopholes were understandable, but in practice they sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying ten percent of his salary, and that’s crazy." -Reagan

  3. #173
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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, Hatuey.

    I am not blaming him for the safety nets that are in place, since it's been law for a long time, and certainly needed. But what I don't understand is how poverty leads to criminality. By the world's standards, our poor are considered wealthy. They have cars, TVs, nice clothing and good food to eat. If our poor are envious of what others have, that's a personal problem. There are no good excuses for destroying what other people have worked for just because you're angry or envious, or feel a wrong has been done to you. It's a moral failing, IMO, but the entire world seems to be sinking into the same morass, and our leaders worldwide don't seem to know how to handle it, so what can we expect? Sad...
    Pol,

    You probably haven't lived a level of poverty where your food groups are grape soda and mayo sandwiches. However, that does exist in our country and people make decisions based around it. Some people try their hardest and struggle for decades to get ahead. They work menial jobs, they take crap from ****ty employers. Some eventually make it out of that poverty and live what is referred to as the "American Dream". Others simply can't make it happen no matter how much crap they take or how hard they work.

    In that second group (the group that doesn't get ahead), you have two kinds of people. The kind which continue trying and don't get anywhere and you have the group that simply decides to give up. This mentality is passed down from one generation to another and to a large extent, it's based on the real life experiences of people living in many of our inner cities. That kind of people is the kind that is responsible for a lot of the criminality in this country.

    So what we have is a multifaceted problem. The first is that yes, poverty diminishes the possibilities of an individual. Secondly, it makes the easy (and trust me on this, they're pretty easy) profits of criminal activities. Finally, this mentality is handed down from one generation to the other.

    With that stated, social programs do ensure that people are less likely to turn into criminals. They ensure that many people are kept away from the crushing poverty we saw in the early 20th century when these programs didn't exist.

    Obviously, this doesn't explain why so many in Wall Street have turned to criminality. The reasons why the rich engage in crime are vastly different than the reasons the poor do. However, in the end, the majority of poor people who engage in criminality do so because they feel it is a good way to survive. I'm not justifying it in any way, but I can see how and why it happens. This is the least convoluted explanation I can give.
    Last edited by Hatuey; 04-28-15 at 11:02 PM.
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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Well if all the coverage has been of black people rioting then why does he need to refer to them as "black savages?"

    And I'm not trying to shut you down at all. I'm being pretty entertained at the moment by watching you try to walk back from your own statements.
    I guess when Obama called the rioters "thugs and criminals" it just wasn't quite up to snuff. He actually had to call them "black savages" to please a certain segment of the population. Because, of course, Obama needs so much more public/media grief than he's already gotten by calling them "thugs and criminals", eh? Poor Obama can't say anything right!

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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I guess when Obama called the rioters "thugs and criminals" it just wasn't quite up to snuff. He actually had to call them "black savages" to please a certain segment of the population. Because, of course, Obama needs so much more public/media grief than he's already gotten by calling them "thugs and criminals", eh? Poor Obama can't say anything right!
    That wouldn't be enough, either. It would only be sufficient when he admits to being single-handedly responsible for racial strife going back a hundred years, and promptly quits office.

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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Really? Well dang, I guess the President was clueless again.
    Your inability to get over your hatred for Obama has made this conversation worthless and tiring. Lucky you only have 2 years left.
    Hail to the King baby!

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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    Pol,

    You probably haven't lived a level of poverty where your food groups are grape soda and mayo sandwiches. However, that does exist in our country and people make decisions based around it. Some people try their hardest and struggle for decades to get ahead. They work menial jobs, they take crap from ****ty employers. Some eventually make it out of that poverty and live what is referred to as the "American Dream". Others simply can't make it happen no matter how much crap they take or how hard they work.

    In that second group (the group that doesn't get ahead), you have two kinds of people. The kind which continue trying and don't get anywhere and you have the group that simply decides to give up. This mentality is passed down from one generation to another and to a large extent, it's based on the real life experiences of people living in many of our inner cities. That kind of people is the kind that is responsible for a lot of the criminality in this country.

    So what we have is a multifaceted problem. The first is that yes, poverty diminishes the possibilities of an individual. Secondly, it makes the easy (and trust me on this, they're pretty easy) profits of criminal activities. Finally, this mentality is handed down from one generation to the other.

    With that stated, social programs do ensure that people are less likely to turn into criminals. They ensure that many people are kept away from the crushing poverty we saw in the early 20th century when these programs didn't exist.

    Obviously, this doesn't explain why so many in Wall Street have turned to criminality. The reasons why the rich engage in crime are vastly different than the reasons the poor do. However, in the end, the majority of poor people who engage in criminality do so because they feel it is a good way to survive. I'm not justifying it in any way, but I can see how and why it happens. This is the least convoluted explanation I can give.
    Great post! Multiple likes given, but only one shows up!

    Are there people who aren't on food stamps that should be? Why would anyone live on grape soda and mayo sandwiches by choice? If food stamp money doesn't have to be spent on food only, I guess that's possible, but yuck! There's obviously a problem, though, because there's a reason why schools are feeding children breakfast and lunch these days, and sending backpacks full of food home on Friday so kids have food to eat over the weekend. We've gotten way out of whack somewhere along the line. I'm very concerned about what's going to happen to the poor if the economy completely heads South, as so many are predicting, and I blame both sides for their inattention to reality.

    As far as Wall Street is concerned, I am seeing that there seems to be almost a frenetic change in attitude lately. They have always been called greedy and self-serving, but there seems to be something else in the wind these days, like a haste to make as much money as possible before some deadline occurs. Unless it has something to do with the rumor that we may lose our "favored nation" status, and the repercussions that will follow, I have no explanation, but even the brokers are edgy.

    I don't know what's going on or what's coming, Hatuey, but I guess it's time to expect the unexpected, and try to be flexible. I just hope that Baltimore doesn't turn out to have been a cakewalk by comparison to what's next, and I'm not a conspiracy nut by nature. I'd like to see everyone work together to fix our problems, and I'll help if I know what to do.

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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    This thread has actually been pretty hilarious. People are unironically interpreting Obama's saying that there is no excuse for violence and rioting to mean that he is excusing violence and rioting. How can people be this jaded?
    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Great post! Multiple likes given, but only one shows up!

    Are there people who aren't on food stamps that should be? Why would anyone live on grape soda and mayo sandwiches by choice? If food stamp money doesn't have to be spent on food only, I guess that's possible, but yuck!
    I lived on grape soda and mayo sandwiches for a large part of my childhood and teen years. I didn't choose to live like that. It simply happened. It's kind of asking why people 'choose' to live in violent neighborhoods. The overwhelming majority don't. They live their lives as best they can and their economic conditions don't allow them to simply pack up and leave or start anew. The world doesn't work that way and never has. That won't change with social programs. However, what they can do is ensure that these people don't also fall victim to a mentality where crime is seen as a more viable alternative. These programs ensure we have a less violent society.

    There's obviously a problem, though, because there's a reason why schools are feeding children breakfast and lunch these days, and sending backpacks full of food home on Friday so kids have food to eat over the weekend. We've gotten way out of whack somewhere along the line. I'm very concerned about what's going to happen to the poor if the economy completely heads South, as so many are predicting, and I blame both sides for their inattention to reality.

    As far as Wall Street is concerned, I am seeing that there seems to be almost a frenetic change in attitude lately. They have always been called greedy and self-serving, but there seems to be something else in the wind these days, like a haste to make as much money as possible before some deadline occurs. Unless it has something to do with the rumor that we may lose our "favored nation" status, and the repercussions that will follow, I have no explanation, but even the brokers are edgy.

    I don't know what's going on or what's coming, Hatuey, but I guess it's time to expect the unexpected, and try to be flexible. I just hope that Baltimore doesn't turn out to have been a cakewalk by comparison to what's next, and I'm not a conspiracy nut by nature. I'd like to see everyone work together to fix our problems, and I'll help if I know what to do.
    I definitely understand your concerns. I was just trying to explain to you how poverty leads to crime. To be honest, I think the first step is discussing the issue outside of a vacuum. It's not enough to say 'fix the police departments!' and bingo. We're good. It's way more than that. It also involves knowing why people are disgruntled, and why they're protesting. Once we know the reasons behind that the solution isn't to attack anybody who discusses the issue in any depth which is what has been observed here.

    If I were in charge of dealing with a lot of this poverty, I'd make welfare programs into a reward system. People would be given benefits based on their contribution to society. If you have a job but it's simply not enough to make ends meet, the government should give you a hand. If you're poor and you can't find a job but your kids are doing well in school and they're trying to get off the poverty cycle (the use of the word trying), the government should be giving you a hand. If a person is sitting in their trailer/ghetto/backyard all day not doing **** with their lives, the government should give them nothing. I think that's a reasonable middle ground in all of this.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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    Re: Obama: 'No excuse' for violence in Baltimore

    Quote Originally Posted by MadLib View Post
    This thread has actually been pretty hilarious. People are unironically interpreting Obama's saying that there is no excuse for violence and rioting to mean that he is excusing violence and rioting. How can people be this jaded?
    Right-wing media has pushed the meme that Obama hates whitey, has been deliberately destroying America, has ruined the post-racial Shangri-La we were allegedly living in. Everything he does is wrong. And their consumers eat it up and demand more. Ergo, everything becomes an excuse to blame Obama because somehow, he simply HAS to be responsible.

    When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
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