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Thread: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Μολὼν λαβέ View Post
    Its interesting how people who scream the cost of attending a state university is exorbitantly high but expect taxpayers to assume the burden for those increases as well.

    What would one expect from the intellectually bankrupt except tax and spend, or better yet, spend and then wonder where the funds will come from to pay for it.

    But why shouldn't state universities try it? The government has gotten away with it for years.

    Of course the liberal answer is to tax, tax, tax; your answer to everything.

    Here's a hint: try fiscal responsibility for a change.

    Here's another hint, think....how do private universities and colleges maintain a balanced budget, or more likely a budget that's in the black?

    Public education is a losing endeavor, including some state university systems.

    No, that wouldn't be my solution. My solution would be to cut 60 billion from the defense budget (which is the estimated cost of providing free tuition to all undergrads at public schools in America, beyond what is already being spent), and divert that money into giving everyone free public education. If people want to go to Harvard, University of Chicago, Stanford, etc they would pay themselves (or with scholarships, etc). However, all public education should be free to everyone. That is a fantastic way to create a more capable and educated populace. We could afford that without any tax increase. Just by being fiscally responsible and cutting wasteful and pointless defense spending, we could offer universal free college educations to all who were interested. Sounds like a good bargain to me.
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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by buck View Post
    Sure, i guess if you keep eliminating professors and departments that make more than $250,000.00 / year, you'll eventually get to a spot where no professors make $250,000.00 /year.

    The simple fact is, that the professors who make those sorts of salaries are in a few departments, and either those departments or those professors bring in huge amounts of money to a university. History is very important to study, but no one is getting grants to study 12 century Chinese bills of sale to better understand daily life in 12th century China. However, if a science professor is doing research funded by the pentagon, which brings in 10 million in grants a year to the university, he/she will command a much higher salary. Business schools, economics departments, law schools, etc also tend to bring in future endowments so they will also have a few professors with higher salaries.

    However, the reason it is important to point out those exceptions, is because there are dozens of other departments where the salaries aren't anywhere near that level. So if you are crafting a larger argument, pointing to a few outliers, who almost certainly bring in large amounts of money to the university, and pretending that is the rule, it is disingenuous at best.
    Last edited by Frodly; 04-25-15 at 01:25 AM.
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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Let's see if I understand the problem:

    Government spends a crap ton on colleges, creating strong incentives for colleges to overspend on useless administrative and recreational expenditures. Government then subsidizes student loans, making the purchasers non-sensitive to price increases, creating additional incentives for colleges to overspend on useless administrative and recreational expenditures....

    ....and the proposed solution is more government?



    Is there any problem that conservatives see that can't be explained by too much government, or any problem that can't be solved by a tax cutting gun? When public education was almost entirely funded by government, education was incredibly cheap. As universities have been caught up in the larger neoliberal trend toward privatization, costs have skyrocketed. There is no reasonable argument to be made that government is the larger problem. Privatization is the problem. Running universities as businesses is the problem.

    If you don't believe me, just look at the sham that is the for profit university.

    The Real Deal on For-Profit Colleges-Kiplinger

    Tuition is significantly higher, which should be impossible, as I was led to believe that private businesses were without fail cheaper and more efficient!!! It must be the liberal media lying to me again!!
    Last edited by Frodly; 04-25-15 at 01:26 AM.
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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by Frodly View Post
    Is there any problem that conservatives see that can't be explained by too much government, or any problem that can't be solved by a tax cutting gun? When public education was almost entirely funded by government, education was incredibly cheap. As universities have been caught up in the larger neoliberal trend toward privatization, costs have skyrocketed. There is no reasonable argument to be made that government is the larger problem. Privatization is the problem. Running universities as businesses is the problem.

    If you don't believe me, just look at the sham that is the for profit university.

    The Real Deal on For-Profit Colleges-Kiplinger

    Tuition is significantly higher, which should be impossible, as I was led to believe that private businesses were without fail cheaper and more efficient!!! It must be the liberal media lying to me again!!
    I've read that article in it's entirety, it was quite interesting so thank you, but it also does not seem to directly support what you are trying to imply...actually it could do the opposite. Sure, at face value with very little insight that's what it seems what the information in the article portrays, but I see a very different picture, and the author does a good job at citing the benefits and niches For-Profit universities fulfill... and the negatives that have arose. I would like to engage in a honest intellectual discussion.

    The reasons for the problems displayed in the article are key, the students that tend to enroll in such universities do not tend to be academics, tend to be students that were not able to make it into a normal university, or dedicate the strict schedule and hours a normal university requires.
    The programs also tend to be much more streamlined and less bloated than a normal university dedicating more focus on the skills and knowledge that is directly necessary for the very specific education track.
    Both of these things fulfill a need in the market that typical universities are unable to provide(#1 because it would increase their cost dramatically and #2 it would require a whole different branch of the university that would operate independent of all the normal policies that wouldn't be sustainable or practical). They are able to provide secondary education to people that wouldn't of had it otherwise.
    These university also do not obtain any of the substantial government aid that other universities do, which, inturn, comparing their tuition and judging their efficiency rate/(how responsible they are with the money) from that is dishonest.

    A lot of the actual problems that was mentioned in the article was actually based off the students making poor financial decisions(Which since, the population of students tend to not be academics, but those that have struggled in the past, they are much more likely to do such a thing)

    These relatively new for-profit institutions, since they are new, need time to be ironed out and acclimated into the market.Not only time, but also political support/and revamping of financial practice of public universities. Since it's a new phenomena there will be growing pains, such as lack of laws that are relevant to the new for-profit education market, lack of public information for the consumers(reputation of universities were more able to be under the radar since it's a new market), lack of time established as an accredited university(Since these are new universities with a different philsophy in education tracks, they are not accredited by the same national associations as the normal universities, but by local/growing associations that have not yet got the full respect of public universities(this is on them actually, national accreditation actually don't want new systems like this to take hold, because they are not a part of their own bureaucracy)

    Trying to get all my thoughts on this down is challenging...but the point is, I dont think the article is showing a flawed idea that isn't working, but a growing educational system niche that needs help and time to flourish
    Last edited by celticwar17; 04-25-15 at 03:41 AM.

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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post


    We are in the middle of a college bubble. If anything we need more people going into trade schools, and less federal money shoving the price of college ever-higher.
    Funny, the numbers say something which fails to support the bubble claim

    Enrollment Falls at Colleges, Universities for Third Straight Year - WSJ

    College and university enrollments slid 1.3% this fall to 19.6 million, dragged down by a 6% decline in students at two-year public schools and a drop in students over age 24.

    It is the third straight year of declining enrollment at U.S. postsecondary institutions, after student populations spiked due to an increasing number of high school graduates and more adults looking to strengthen their résumés during the recession.

    But demographics have since shifted, the job market is once again an attractive alternative, especially for older students, and costs are scaring some prospective undergraduates away from campus. Enrollments declined in 39 states and Washington, D.C.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Higher education and colleges is one of the few edges this country still has over the rest of the world. But the Republicans, because of politics are bound and determined to kill that edge.
    "Big or small, I don't like rabbits. They always look like they're about to say something, but they never do."
    Raj Koothrappali

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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by SenorXm/Sirius View Post
    Higher education and colleges is one of the few edges this country still has over the rest of the world. But the Republicans, because of politics are bound and determined to kill that edge.
    Republicans want to damage higher education?! What?

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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I've read that article in it's entirety, it was quite interesting so thank you, but it also does not seem to directly support what you are trying to imply...actually it could do the opposite. Sure, at face value with very little insight that's what it seems what the information in the article portrays, but I see a very different picture, and the author does a good job at citing the benefits and niches For-Profit universities fulfill... and the negatives that have arose. I would like to engage in a honest intellectual discussion.

    The reasons for the problems displayed in the article are key, the students that tend to enroll in such universities do not tend to be academics, tend to be students that were not able to make it into a normal university, or dedicate the strict schedule and hours a normal university requires.
    The programs also tend to be much more streamlined and less bloated than a normal university dedicating more focus on the skills and knowledge that is directly necessary for the very specific education track.
    Both of these things fulfill a need in the market that typical universities are unable to provide(#1 because it would increase their cost dramatically and #2 it would require a whole different branch of the university that would operate independent of all the normal policies that wouldn't be sustainable or practical). They are able to provide secondary education to people that wouldn't of had it otherwise.
    These university also do not obtain any of the substantial government aid that other universities do, which, inturn, comparing their tuition and judging their efficiency rate/(how responsible they are with the money) from that is dishonest.

    A lot of the actual problems that was mentioned in the article was actually based off the students making poor financial decisions(Which since, the population of students tend to not be academics, but those that have struggled in the past, they are much more likely to do such a thing)

    These relatively new for-profit institutions, since they are new, need time to be ironed out and acclimated into the market.Not only time, but also political support/and revamping of financial practice of public universities. Since it's a new phenomena there will be growing pains, such as lack of laws that are relevant to the new for-profit education market, lack of public information for the consumers(reputation of universities were more able to be under the radar since it's a new market), lack of time established as an accredited university(Since these are new universities with a different philsophy in education tracks, they are not accredited by the same national associations as the normal universities, but by local/growing associations that have not yet got the full respect of public universities(this is on them actually, national accreditation actually don't want new systems like this to take hold, because they are not a part of their own bureaucracy)

    Trying to get all my thoughts on this down is challenging...but the point is, I dont think the article is showing a flawed idea that isn't working, but a growing educational system niche that needs help and time to flourish
    For-profit universities aren't new. The University of Phoenix has been around since 1976.
    They aren't a good investment, generally, for students, who end up in debt with non-transferable courses and potential employers not impressed with their credentials because of the accreditation.

    "The main expense of for-profit schools isn’t on education (like state schools, they pay the highly educated teachers very little), it’s on recruiting suckers/students to enroll. Google’s biggest customer, for example, is the for-profit University of Phoenix, which spends $200,000 a day on Google advertising."

    Confessions of a College Professor: For-Profit College Degrees Are Worthless

    The Problem(s) With For-Profit Colleges

    For Profit Colleges: Maintaining a Permanent Underclass*|*Julia Meszaros

    The Case Against For-Profit Colleges and Universities

    The High Price of For-Profit Colleges | AAUP

    https://www.insidehighered.com/views...ir-roots-essay

    'Change.edu' and the Problem With For-Profits - Commentary - The Chronicle of Higher Education

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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I've read that article in it's entirety, it was quite interesting so thank you, but it also does not seem to directly support what you are trying to imply...actually it could do the opposite. Sure, at face value with very little insight that's what it seems what the information in the article portrays, but I see a very different picture, and the author does a good job at citing the benefits and niches For-Profit universities fulfill... and the negatives that have arose. I would like to engage in a honest intellectual discussion.
    I also hope we can hold an honest discussion but we need to look at the big picture here and not simply what one side or the other is saying. The links here come from the Miami Herald's investigation of "for-profit" schools in Florida

    <snip>
    . . . a need in the market that typical universities are unable to provide(#1 because it would increase their cost dramatically and #2 it would require a whole different branch of the university that would operate independent of all the normal policies that wouldn't be sustainable or practical). They are able to provide secondary education to people that wouldn't of had it otherwise.
    These university also do not obtain any of the substantial government aid that other universities do, which, inturn, comparing their tuition and judging their efficiency rate/(how responsible they are with the money) from that is dishonest.
    Reality tells us that much of the funding for these for-profit schools comes from government-subsidised student loans.

    A lot of the actual problems that was mentioned in the article was actually based off the students making poor financial decisions(Which since, the population of students tend to not be academics, but those that have struggled in the past, they are much more likely to do such a thing)

    These relatively new for-profit institutions, since they are new, need time to be ironed out and acclimated into the market.Not only time, but also political support/and revamping of financial practice of public universities.
    <snip>

    Trying to get all my thoughts on this down is challenging...but the point is, I dont think the article is showing a flawed idea that isn't working, but a growing educational system niche that needs help and time to flourish
    As you can see I've edited celticwar17's comment because I didn't want to create a TLR post as follow-up but I probably have anyway.

    These for-profit colleges have lots of "political support", which just happens to be a major part of the problems they have created.
    Politicians cash in on colleges
    Fr more than a decade, “accountability” has been the education buzzword in Florida.

    Schools are assigned A-to-F letter grades, teachers are evaluated using a complicated mathematical formula and third-graders can be held back if they don’t pass a standardized reading test.

    The rules are different at for-profit colleges. The Herald found that, despite fraud lawsuits and government investigations around the country, Florida’s Legislature continues to encourage the growth of the industry, which says it provides opportunities to disadvantaged students. Lawmakers have increased funding sources and reduced quality standards and oversight.
    . . . continued in next post
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
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    Re: LSU drafting 'academic bankruptcy' plan in response to state budget crisis

    Quote Originally Posted by celticwar17 View Post
    I've read that article in it's entirety, it was quite interesting so thank you, but it also does not seem to directly support what you are trying to imply...actually it could do the opposite. Sure, at face value with very little insight that's what it seems what the information in the article portrays, but I see a very different picture, and the author does a good job at citing the benefits and niches For-Profit universities fulfill... and the negatives that have arose. I would like to engage in a honest intellectual discussion.

    The reasons for the problems displayed in the article are key, the students that tend to enroll in such universities do not tend to be academics, tend to be students that were not able to make it into a normal university, or dedicate the strict schedule and hours a normal university requires.
    The programs also tend to be much more streamlined and less bloated than a normal university dedicating more focus on the skills and knowledge that is directly necessary for the very specific education track.
    Both of these things fulfill a need in the market that typical universities are unable to provide(#1 because it would increase their cost dramatically and #2 it would require a whole different branch of the university that would operate independent of all the normal policies that wouldn't be sustainable or practical). They are able to provide secondary education to people that wouldn't of had it otherwise.
    These university also do not obtain any of the substantial government aid that other universities do, which, inturn, comparing their tuition and judging their efficiency rate/(how responsible they are with the money) from that is dishonest.

    A lot of the actual problems that was mentioned in the article was actually based off the students making poor financial decisions(Which since, the population of students tend to not be academics, but those that have struggled in the past, they are much more likely to do such a thing)

    These relatively new for-profit institutions, since they are new, need time to be ironed out and acclimated into the market.Not only time, but also political support/and revamping of financial practice of public universities. Since it's a new phenomena there will be growing pains, such as lack of laws that are relevant to the new for-profit education market, lack of public information for the consumers(reputation of universities were more able to be under the radar since it's a new market), lack of time established as an accredited university(Since these are new universities with a different philsophy in education tracks, they are not accredited by the same national associations as the normal universities, but by local/growing associations that have not yet got the full respect of public universities(this is on them actually, national accreditation actually don't want new systems like this to take hold, because they are not a part of their own bureaucracy)

    Trying to get all my thoughts on this down is challenging...but the point is, I dont think the article is showing a flawed idea that isn't working, but a growing educational system niche that needs help and time to flourish
    For-profit universities aren't new. The University of Phoenix has been around since 1976. They aren't a good investment, generally, for students, who end up in debt with non-transferable courses and potential employers not impressed with their credentials because of the accreditation.

    "The main expense of for-profit schools isn’t on education (like state schools, they pay the highly educated teachers very little), it’s on recruiting suckers/students to enroll. Google’s biggest customer, for example, is the for-profit University of Phoenix, which spends $200,000 a day on Google advertising."

    Confessions of a College Professor: For-Profit College Degrees Are Worthless

    The Problem(s) With For-Profit Colleges

    For Profit Colleges: Maintaining a Permanent Underclass*|*Julia Meszaros

    The Case Against For-Profit Colleges and Universities

    The High Price of For-Profit Colleges | AAUP

    https://www.insidehighered.com/views...ir-roots-essay

    'Change.edu' and the Problem With For-Profits - Commentary - The Chronicle of Higher Education

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