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Thread: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    While you are under no obligation to reveal your age, a comment like this suggests that you're a young whippersnapper.

    There was substantially more youth rebellion in the late 1960s and early 70s than anything we see today. Young people routinely attacked a variety of authority figures, from military to police to university administrations to politicians. And not just verbal attacks or protests -- I'm talking literal attacks, ranging from riots (Chicago '68) to terrorist attacks (Weather Underground) to gun battles with the police (Black Panthers etc)

    "Justice for all" used to mean "justice for white people, and lynchings for blacks." Women were routinely marginalized, ignored, and thwarted from most professional careers, and were expected to be barefoot and in the kitchen.



    lol

    Racism, sexism, and other forms of discrimination are no longer tolerated. Figuring out what not to say isn't really that difficult, unless you categorically refuse to watch Key & Peele and/or Broad City. The difference is that in the past, those groups were basically thwarted from speaking at all, let alone expressing political views.

    And again: Conservatives spent decades trying to shut down all sorts of speech (and of course, behaviors) merely because it offended their sensibilities. The difference is that now, their tactics aren't very effective. And if you can't use a tactic anymore, why should you allow your political rivals to use it?



    Courts have overturned unconstitutional laws for decades; nothing new there.

    And no, legislators are not empowered to take away the rights of citizens, even if a majority of citizens demand it. That's a basic concept of American jurisprudence.



    Not sure how to break this to you, but desecrating the flag is a form of protected speech. In a thread where you're complaining about people shutting down speech, that seems like an odd thing to object to.

    Oh, and people have desecrated the flag as a form of protest for decades. Pretty routine in the 60s and even the 90s. Nothin' new there too.



    Uh, no. No, they haven't. There were a few very small riots in Ferguson, which is NOTHING compared to the riots throughout the 1960s, or even the LA riots in 1992.

    I'd say that sports riots are far more common in the US today than political riots....
    White People Rioting for No Reason -- NYMag



    Or, you have absolutely no awareness or perspective on American civil society, and believe a bunch of declinist nonsense because some of your political views got sidelined.
    Greetings, Visbeck.

    I am considered open-minded and fair in most things, and I hope to stay that way, since it makes life easier for me not to hate anyone because of political ideology. Life is too short, and there are far more important things to be concerned about. The 60s are not a period I look back on as ideal, since it started an "anything goes" mentality to achieve a goal, which we are seeing their children use today.

    As far as desecrating our flag, I have both family and friends who have died for that flag and what it represents, so I disagree with you. Is there any other country in the world where it's okay to burn their flag or walk on it? That shows disrespect, which is why terrorists use that tactic. Try doing that to their flag, or anything they hold important, and see what happens! Then you can tell me I'm wrong in my thinking!

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    American Sniper has a box office total of $348,306,000 -- and it's still showing in some theaters across the US, including Maryland. The protest was also perfectly peaceful, it was basically a petition of 300 students. There was absolutely no violence involved in this protest, before or after. If we apply your logic, you should have no objection to this protest, or this outcome.
    The reputation of Christians carrying out peaceful protests is well known while the history of Muslims carrying out vicious and murderous riots is also well documented. Had Christians written such a petition they would have been laughed at and the petition ignored. But we all know, or should know, what happens at Muslim protests.
    Let me be clear, I'm not thrilled by this outcome. However, what I am more specifically pointing out in this thread is that it is completely incorrect to act as though leftists are the only ones who have protested a cultural exhibition, or that there is anything new or exceptional about this. It's a critical fact, easily overlooked by partisans when it suits them.
    Protests by leftists do have a history of being more violent than other protesters. Only Muslims would give them any competition in that department.
    Christians have engaged in a huge range of violent actions in the name of enacting political change. E.g. racists frequently cited their Christian theological views when pushing for slavery and segregation. Christians often beat, and in some cases murdered, homosexuals based on their theological views. I listed a half dozen instances of Christians who used terrorist tactics.
    Are you doing an Obama here and going back to the crusades? If we are talking of contemporary protests there is genuinely nothing to fear from Christians. In fact, if you follow the news, they are being deliberately targeted and singled out for death by Muslims.
    Looking back further, throughout European history we see Christians oppressing, murdering and waging war on one another in mixtures of sectarian and political violence, just as we see with Muslims today. We see Christians invading the Middle East in the Crusades (and, in at least one instance, sacking the Eastern Orthodox city of Constantinople in the process), using methods so crude and violent that it shocked Muslims into responding. We see Christians attacking Jews and reveling in anti-semitism for centuries.
    Oh yes, you'll have to go back centuries to support an opinion you carry with you today, despite all the intervening changes. What we should be focusing on is what is going on in our lifetimes and what we can do about it. Blaming Christians for something which happened centuries ago and comparing it to what Muslims are doing today is absolute nonsense.
    And since you missed it, there was this little thing called the Arab Spring -- a largely peaceful series of protests that changed a half dozen governments.
    And where did that go?
    Claiming that "Muslims are violent and Christians are not!" based on a biased and selective reading of 5 of history? Sorry, that doesn't fly.
    Are you quoting me here??

  3. #123
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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    The 60s are not a period I look back on as ideal, since it started an "anything goes" mentality to achieve a goal, which we are seeing their children use today.
    My point is that there was far more upheaval in the 1960s and early 70s than anything we see today. Your declinist narrative doesn't make sense, because our society is much more stable today than it was 40-50 years ago.


    As far as desecrating our flag, I have both family and friends who have died for that flag and what it represents, so I disagree with you.
    Tangent begins in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1....

    Disagree with what, exactly? It is a fact that flag desecration is a protected form of speech. Repeated attempts to pass an amendment that outlaws flag desecration have failed.

    As to opposing flag desecration as a political protest, on what basis do you object? That some people have an emotional attachment to a piece of fabric? Does burning the flag offend you? How is that any different than a bunch of students protesting against a movie, because the movie offends them? Or someone objecting to an illustration of Muhammad?

    Do you plan to outlaw the phrase "I hate America" as well? Isn't that a disrespectful phrase? Isn't that basically the same thing as burning a flag? Where do we draw the line?


    Is there any other country in the world where it's okay to burn their flag or walk on it?
    Yep.

    Australia, Belgium, Canada, Denmark, United Kingdom.

    Of course, we don't normally use other nations as a proxy for the rights of citizens. If we did, we'd have more restrictive gun laws and capital punishment would be outlawed. Anyway....


    That shows disrespect, which is why terrorists use that tactic. Try doing that to their flag, or anything they hold important, and see what happens! Then you can tell me I'm wrong in my thinking!
    How is that supposed to prove anything?

    There are people out there who would be willing to kill me for drawing a cartoon of Muhammad, and are more emotionally attached to the prohibition on images of the Prophet than you are to the American flag. Does that mean we should outlaw any images of Muhammad?

    Where you are wrong in your thinking is that you're letting an emotional attachment to a symbol override your commitment to the principles represented by that symbol. The true test of liberty is in tolerating the views of those with whom you disagree, even if they disrespect something that is crucially important to you. You ask something of the UMD's Muslim Students Association that you are unwilling to do yourself. That is fundamentally unfair, and un-American.

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    The reputation of Christians carrying out peaceful protests is well known while the history of Muslims carrying out vicious and murderous riots is also well documented....
    And yet, you provide no such documentation. How convenient.


    Had Christians written such a petition they would have been laughed at and the petition ignored.
    Christians DO make exactly those types of protests and petitions. Heck, one Christian group is boycotting Girl Scout Cookies, because they erroneously believe there's a connection between the Girl Scouts and Planned Parenthood. I find it downright bizarre that you fail to recognize this, despite having it pointed out to you repeatedly.


    But we all know, or should know, what happens at Muslim protests.
    No, we don't. Go ahead, tell me. Tell me what happens when a Muslim student group at an American college doesn't get its way. Please provide concrete examples.

    Again: If you live in sheer abject terror of 300 students who sign a petition asking a student organization not to show a movie, that's not the fault of the UMD's Muslim Students Association. That one's on you.


    Protests by leftists do have a history of being more violent than other protesters.
    lol... No, I don't think so. I certainly haven't seen any evidence to make any such claim. But thanks for yet more unproven partisan nonsense, can never get enough of that.


    If we are talking of contemporary protests there is genuinely nothing to fear from Christians.
    Except the ones who shoot up a bunch of Sikhs, or a bunch of school kids, or blow up a federal building, or....


    In fact, if you follow the news, they are being deliberately targeted and singled out for death by Muslims.
    In fact, if you follow the news, you'll see that Muslims spend most of their time attacking other Muslims -- in the same way that Christians spent centuries mostly killing each other Christians, and only occasionally taking a break to slaughter Jews in their communities, or Muslims. ISIS is attacking mostly Shi'a Muslims in Syria and Iraq; the conflict in Yemen is Muslims fighting each other, with sectarian involvement; the Iraqi civil war was mostly Sunnis and Shi'a killing each other; Iran and Iraq fought a decade-long war. The list goes on. The Christian minorities in those nations are mostly caught in the crossfire.

    Or, to put it another way: There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world. If they were actively trying to kill Christians, it'd be a little more obvious than a handful Copts in Egypt getting mistreated by the government.

    And of course, right in the here and now we see numerous Christians bashing on Muslims, just in ways you conveniently ignore. Europe is awash in far-right and fascist groups, who blame "migrants" (read: Muslims) for all their social, economic and political woes -- sound familiar? Muslims are routinely attacked in France (usually women), mosques destroyed by arsonists -- sound familiar. Of course, the occasional mosque in the US also gets firebombed. But hey, we're Christians, we're the good guys, we don't have to pay attention to that, whatever....


    Anyway, most of this is aside the point. The reality is that Muslims in the US are not in a perpetual state of violent revolt. Muslim student groups aren't attacking anyone when one of their petitions is ignored. Conservatives and Christians do, in fact, engage in exactly these kinds of protests, as does pretty much everyone else; and the failure to acknowledge this only shows the narrow and partisan nature of your views.

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by StillBallin75 View Post
    This has jack to do with free speech or the 1st Amendment.
    It wasn't allowed due to it being offensive to people on the U of M campus because they were told Chris Kyle was a Duke fan.

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    And yet, you provide no such documentation. How convenient.
    I don't know whether you're serious or just trolling but here are some photos.. https://www.google.ca/search?q=photo...ed=0CAYQ_AUoAQ
    Christians DO make exactly those types of protests and petitions. Heck, one Christian group is boycotting Girl Scout Cookies, because they erroneously believe there's a connection between the Girl Scouts and Planned Parenthood. I find it downright bizarre that you fail to recognize this, despite having it pointed out to you repeatedly.
    Oh, so it may not be that you are unaware of the Muslim riots and murders, only that you have no sense of proportion.
    No, we don't. Go ahead, tell me. Tell me what happens when a Muslim student group at an American college doesn't get its way. Please provide concrete examples.
    We? Who are you speaking for? I note you also try to ignore the international violence created by Muslims and want to restrict it to an American university. In fact their reputation is international but here is one where they tried to stifle free speech.https://ca-mg5.mail.yahoo.com/neo/la...drupt24jble9#2
    Again: If you live in sheer abject terror of 300 students who sign a petition asking a student organization not to show a movie, that's not the fault of the UMD's Muslim Students Association. That one's on you.
    I lie in abject terror? Now you are just being stupid.
    lol... No, I don't think so. I certainly haven't seen any evidence to make any such claim. But thanks for yet more unproven partisan nonsense, can never get enough of that.
    You'll never see much of anything if you don't do some research.https://www.google.ca/search?q=unive...tists+protests
    Except the ones who shoot up a bunch of Sikhs, or a bunch of school kids, or blow up a federal building, or....
    Do some research and then post your findings.
    In fact, if you follow the news, you'll see that Muslims spend most of their time attacking other Muslims --
    I agree. They are killing each other, deliberately targeting Christians to slaughter and want to murder Jews as well. This is all well documented.
    in the same way that Christians spent centuries mostly killing each other Christians, and only occasionally taking a break to slaughter Jews in their communities, or Muslims.
    Every claim you make must have documented suport.
    ISIS is attacking mostly Shi'a Muslims in Syria and Iraq; the conflict in Yemen is Muslims fighting each other, with sectarian involvement; the Iraqi civil war was mostly Sunnis and Shi'a killing each other; Iran and Iraq fought a decade-long war.
    The fact is that Muslims are creating terror throughout the world, and you don't appear to even be aware of this!
    The Christian minorities in those nations are mostly caught in the crossfire.
    https://www.google.ca/search?q=unive...B837%3B467Does this look like any "crossfire" to you???
    Or, to put it another way: There are around 1 billion Muslims in the world. If they were actively trying to kill Christians, it'd be a little more obvious than a handful Copts in Egypt getting mistreated by the government.
    Do you think ALL Muslims are terrorists or NO Muslims are terrorists?
    And of course, right in the here and now we see numerous Christians bashing on Muslims, just in ways you conveniently ignore.
    Muslims are murdering innocent people throughout the world, riot with little provocation and it is seldom necessary to even point it out. In most well read circles this is common knowledge.
    Europe is awash in far-right and fascist groups, who blame "migrants" (read: Muslims) for all their social, economic and political woes -- sound familiar? Muslims are routinely attacked in France (usually women), mosques destroyed by arsonists -- sound familiar. Of course, the occasional mosque in the US also gets firebombed. But hey, we're Christians, we're the good guys, we don't have to pay attention to that, whatever....
    It seems you are also unaware of what happened at Charlie Hebdo. That's amazing!!

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by Erod View Post
    University of Maryland cancels



    Freedom of speech is a one-way street these days.

    And this country has lost its spine.
    Maybe Muslims that don't like this movie should do something about their religious leaders and/or terrorists using the name of Islam as a weapon instead of bitching about a movie being shown that they don't like... people like that can **** off.

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Maybe Muslims that don't like this movie should do something about their religious leaders and/or terrorists using the name of Islam as a weapon instead of bitching about a movie being shown that they don't like... people like that can **** off.
    That would seem like a sensible alternative.

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    I don't know whether you're serious or just trolling....
    I asked for evidence; REAL evidence, statistical evidence. A link to some scattered Google images is not evidence. I'm not surprised that you do not have anything real to back up your biased claim.


    Oh, so it may not be that you are unaware of the Muslim riots and murders, only that you have no sense of proportion.
    lol

    Yes, I'm aware of Muslim riots and murders. I'm also aware of American riots and murders, including murders by Christians for sectarian reasons, and (of course) the American government remotely dropping bombs in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, and Somalia. I'm also aware that a small petition by a Muslim student group is not going to result in a riot or murder if they don't get their way, as you so clearly imply.


    We? Who are you speaking for? I note you also try to ignore the international violence created by Muslims and want to restrict it to an American university.
    Uh, hello? What do you think we're discussing here? Are you not even reading the title of this thread?


    You'll never see much of anything if you don't do some research.


    That's not "research." That's a dead link. If you want to claim that "leftist groups are more violent," you'd actually have to conduct a survey of all the violence conducted by political groups (which, by the way, is going to include the KKK, pro-segregation groups, right-wing death squads and so on). Somehow, I seriously doubt your broken link leads to any such survey.


    I agree. They are killing each other, deliberately targeting Christians to slaughter and want to murder Jews as well. This is all well documented.
    ISIS is deliberately targeting everyone who does not subscribe to their very narrow and extreme ideology. Again, Christians unfortunately happen to be in the way.


    Every claim you make must have documented suport.


    You want me to what, exhaustively list every war in Europe between 500 CE and 1975 CE? Teaching you basic European history is definitely not my job.


    The fact is that Muslims are creating terror throughout the world, and you don't appear to even be aware of this! Does[/url] this look like any "crossfire" to you???
    It looks like you don't have anything that resembles a cogent assembly of evidence.


    Do you think ALL Muslims are terrorists or NO Muslims are terrorists?
    I think that is the most ridiculous question I've seen in a long time. It's barely worth any reply at all, but what the heck.

    It is a very small percentage of Muslims who are engaged in international terrorism.

    More importantly, terrorism is merely a tactic, and one that has been used -- and will be used in the future -- by a wide variety of ideological groups. Right-wing Christian groups used terrorism, notably the KKK and less organized opponents of desegregation; left-wing revolutionaries used terrorism in the 1970s; right-wing Latin American governments often used death squads to fight against socialist revolutionaries in the 70s, 80s and 90s; the FARC, a pack of former socialist rebels turned drug dealers, use terror against Colombian citizens for years on end; Tim McVeigh, a right-wing Christian, was unquestionably a terrorist; the list goes on.

    Terrorism is a tactic. Everybody does it. You have to be wearing exceptionally narrow blinders to think that the only groups that use terrorism are Muslims and/or leftists.


    Muslims are murdering innocent people throughout the world, riot with little provocation and it is seldom necessary to even point it out. In most well read circles this is common knowledge.
    lol

    The American government is murdering innocent people throughout the world, we just use drones instead of suicide bombers. Americans (almost all Christians) riot with little provocation, notably when a favorite sports team loses -- or wins. It is unnecessary to point this out, as it is common knowledge.

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    Re: University of Maryland cancels ĎAmerican Sniperí after Muslim students complain

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The American government is murdering innocent people throughout the world, we just use drones instead of suicide bombers.
    When we kill civilians, it's by accident. Drones are precision weapons that are used to limit collateral damage.
    Jihadists target civilians on purpose. Suicide bombs are not precision weapons. They are used for shock value.

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