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Thread: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

  1. #111
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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    This isn't an issue of sovereignty alone but also an issue of capability.
    According to international law once it is proven that a sovereign nation cannot take care or is unwilling to take care of a threat posed by a citizen or organization based in the lands under its sovereignty then the nation that is being threatened by that citizen and/or organization has a right to "violate" the sovereign state's sovereignty and target the organization.

    In the case of Israel it's obvious it is capable of taking care of such threats within its own territory, certainly in such a non-hostile place as the city of Haifa which is the third largest city in Israel. It's akin to the French police handling the attack on the kosher market in Paris. So you are still engaging in an hyperbole here since Pakistan is a completely different case.
    And who determines the issue of capability? Why couldn't the US simply say that the Israelis aren't capable in this case and we'd better use one of our drones to be sure? After all, Bibi and Barack aren't speaking. According to the principles you've been espousing, there would be nothing wrong with that scenario.
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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I hadn't realized the US was at war with Pakistan.

    And it depends on who's involved in the terrorism. Obama seems to have no problem negotiating with the terrorists in Iran and the Taliban in Afghanistan. And don't forget arming the terrorists, or at least some of them, in Syria. But sending a drone over Pakistan or Yemen or Somalia is cool for the big man in the Oval Office, regardless of the fallout.
    He got at least part of that right.

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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    And who determines the issue of capability? Why couldn't the US simply say that the Israelis aren't capable in this case and we'd better use one of our drones to be sure? After all, Bibi and Barack aren't speaking. According to the principles you've been espousing, there would be nothing wrong with that scenario.
    Past incidents are acting as evidence to Israel's capability.
    Likewise, when Israel attacked Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006 it was "violating" Lebanon's sovereignty, but it was justified because it was proven that Lebanon is unwilling to take care of the threat that Hezbollah posed to Israel. That's how international law determines capability and/or willingness. When one of these does not exist the threatened nation is more than welcomed to bomb the crap out of the threatening party. When they both exist it has no right to do so.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Would you condone the US sending a drone over Israeli territory to bomb a couple of terrorists hiding out in say Haifa - maybe a couple of Israeli citizens get vaporized in the process? No big deal, right?
    There is no possibility of such a scenario arising.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by polgara View Post
    Greetings, austrianecon.

    How does Israeli law differ from ours in this instance?
    It doesn't anymore. Israel since the 1970s has had a policy of assassination. They like terms such as "targeted killing".
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by Apocalypse View Post
    Past incidents are acting as evidence to Israel's capability.
    Likewise, when Israel attacked Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006 it was "violating" Lebanon's sovereignty, but it was justified because it was proven that Lebanon is unwilling to take care of the threat that Hezbollah posed to Israel. That's how international law determines capability and/or willingness. When one of these does not exist the threatened nation is more than welcomed to bomb the crap out of the threatening party. When they both exist it has no right to do so.
    I might agree with you if terrorists had camps set up in Mexico or Canada with weapons trained on US locations. I wasn't aware that some terrorists in shacks in the mountains of Pakistan were a direct threat on US soil.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    There is no possibility of such a scenario arising.
    Good evening 2M - I'm simply speaking to the principles behind the actions.
    A Canadian conservative is one who believes in limited government and that the government should stay out of our wallets and out of our bedrooms.

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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    I might agree with you if terrorists had camps set up in Mexico or Canada with weapons trained on US locations. I wasn't aware that some terrorists in shacks in the mountains of Pakistan were a direct threat on US soil.
    The moment a person joins a terror organization that targets a certain nation he poses an active threat to that nation until he leaves said organization or his organization renounces violence. The reason to it is that a person who is a member of a terror organization that actively targets members of a certain nation will conduct plans to target members of said nation, so even if a member of AQ hiding in Pakistan isn't currently attacking the United States that doesn't mean he isn't planning to do so and the assumption will always be that because he chose to become a member of the terror organization of al-Qaeda he will, at present or at one point, plan to target America and will be referred to as an active threat to the security of the United States as all members of al-Qaeda and other anti-American terror organizations are.
    "The darkest places in hell are reserved for those who maintain their neutrality in times of moral crisis."

    Dante Alighieri

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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    It doesn't anymore. Israel since the 1970s has had a policy of assassination. They like terms such as "targeted killing".
    And we are copying that?

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    Re: American, Italian Hostages Killed in CIA Drone Strike in January

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Not exactly. The terrorists are "unlawful combatants" as defined by the laws of war. Moreover, prisoners of war may be detained without trial for the duration of the conflict. In the case of this war, that could be several decades.
    No, the US Government tried to argue they were "unlawful combatants" to avoid dealing with it. Hamdan v. Rumsfeld recognizes them as "lawful" under Article 3 of Geneva Conventions and a couple other cases.. end result was the US Government losing all of the cases.. and those "unlawful combatants" were afforded Habeas Corpus rights.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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