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Thread: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

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    ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    http://rt.com/uk/252365-karen-buckle...m_campaign=RSS

    A judge has caused a furor by suggesting a student who was murdered after a night out in Scotland “put herself in a vulnerable position” by drinking.

    Karen Buckley, a 24-year-old student from Glasgow Caledonian University, went missing on Saturday April 11 after a night out in the city’s West End.

    After a “demoralizing” four-day hunt, Buckley’s body was discovered near a farm in North Glasgow on Thursday April 16.

    However, at a court hearing the day after her body was found, Buckley’s father implied she had been drinking heavily on the night she went missing.
    Then cue strawmen and accusations of “victim blaming.”

    “No one can gain consent from an intoxicated person,” women’s right activist and councilor at Rape Crisis Michelle Bergh told RT.

    “So regardless of the prosecutor’s feeling that the survivor has placed themselves in a vulnerable position by drinking alcohol, the onus is on the alleged perpetrator to obtain consent.”

    Bergh told RT she feels “strongly” about situations like this, and victim blaming can cause a “devastating impact” on the families of the victims and survivors.
    There is a fine line between actual statements of victim blaming (she dressed slutty, she was asking for it, etc) and statements of fact regarding a dangerous position one can put him/herself in. To categorize both under the umbrella of “victim blaming” makes a farce of even the most basic notions of self preservation and good judgment.

    I think the article and the comments under it are muddied by the fact that the victim is a woman. Let’s replace the gender and say a man drinks far too much at a club and is subsequently mugged while walking home. I don’t think there would be much debate on the claim that if the man had drank less so that he was in control of how he got home, he would likely have not gotten mugged. He would have made a less convenient target, he would have walked in a more straight-line trajectory to his destination or, what many people typically do at the end of a night, just take a taxi thus eliminating their exposure to any dangerous elements altogether.

    Where do you draw the line between a basic observation that one must take control of their preservation, exercising control over themselves and the environment they may find themselves in…and “victim blaming?”

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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    ?Victim blaming? judge says murdered girl put herself ?in vulnerable position? ? RT UK

    Then cue strawmen and accusations of “victim blaming.”

    There is a fine line between actual statements of victim blaming (she dressed slutty, she was asking for it, etc) and statements of fact regarding a dangerous position one can put him/herself in. To categorize both under the umbrella of “victim blaming” makes a farce of even the most basic notions of self preservation and good judgment.

    I think the article and the comments under it are muddied by the fact that the victim is a woman. Let’s replace the gender and say a man drinks far too much at a club and is subsequently mugged while walking home. I don’t think there would be much debate on the claim that if the man had drank less so that he was in control of how he got home, he would likely have not gotten mugged. He would have made a less convenient target, he would have walked in a more straight-line trajectory to his destination or, what many people typically do at the end of a night, just take a taxi thus eliminating their exposure to any dangerous elements altogether.

    Where do you draw the line between a basic observation that one must take control of their preservation, exercising control over themselves and the environment they may find themselves in…and “victim blaming?
    I would say simply enough by holding everyone responsible for their own actions. It is dumb to do stupid and irresponsibly dangerous things like get drunk and then walk alone down dark alleyways with hundred dollar bills hanging out of your pockets, singing a loud song about how much you hate every single ethnicity that isn't you in a neighborhood dominated by other ethnicities, and it is also criminal for someone responding to that to then beat you with a baseball bat and steal your money. Saying "well, it is stupid to wander drunkenly into other neighborhoods and pick fights, and you shouldn't do that" in no way obviates the "and it is also wrong to beat people with bats and steal from them."
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I would say simply enough by holding everyone responsible for their own actions. It is dumb to do stupid and irresponsibly dangerous things like get drunk and then walk alone down dark alleyways with hundred dollar bills hanging out of your pockets, singing a loud song about how much you hate every single ethnicity that isn't you in a neighborhood dominated by other ethnicities, and it is also criminal for someone responding to that to then beat you with a baseball bat and steal your money. Saying "well, it is stupid to wander drunkenly into other neighborhoods and pick fights, and you shouldn't do that" in no way obviates the "and it is also wrong to beat people with bats and steal from them."
    "Holding everyone to their own actions" merely repeats the vagueness of the debate, as it comes no closer to clearing up the difference between personal responsibility and victim blaming.

    Even those who have used the line "she was asking for it" have stated that the perpetrator in an attack should be held accountable to the law.

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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    "Holding everyone to their own actions" merely repeats the vagueness of the debate, as it comes no closer to clearing up the difference between personal responsibility and victim blaming.
    I don't see how it doesn't. You are personally responsible for your own choices.

    Even those who have used the line "she was asking for it" have stated that the perpetrator in an attack should be held accountable to the law.
    Well, no. If she was actually asking for sex, then rape hasn't occurred. If she was merely being stupid, then she was stupid (and shouldn't do that), and rape has still occurred and should be punished.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I don't see how it doesn't. You are personally responsible for your own choices.
    Which falls under the same umbrella, depending on who's making the statement, as "if she hadn't dressed slutty, rape would not have occurred." So again, you're just restating the vagueness of the topic. What you're guilty of, and to an extent so am I, is the equivalent of "I don't know what pornography is, but I know it when I see it."

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well, no. If she was actually asking for sex, then rape hasn't occurred. If she was merely being stupid, then she was stupid (and shouldn't do that), and rape has still occurred and should be punished.
    Then you didn't get the context of those discussions. Even those vile enough to make such a statement as "she was asking for it" still go on to say that the attacker should be thrown in jail for rape, thus showing the statement to not be literal. What is meant by that is that the woman's choice of clothing bore responsibility for the rape.

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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    I suggest the Independent (and the RT which plagiarised them) may have libelled the judge. You see, if he'd actually said "she put herself in a vulnerable position by drinking" they would have been able to quote him directly but they used the common and fraudulent quote/reportage combination to create a quote that was never spoken.

    It'd be interesting to see the full text of the judges summing up (which is presumably where the "quotes" came from) but I'm sure the media will never publish that because they couldn't spin an attack story out of the truth.

    I also wonder how many of the "angry twitter users" are "news"paper employees using multiple false accounts.

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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I don't see how it doesn't. You are personally responsible for your own choices.



    Well, no. If she was actually asking for sex, then rape hasn't occurred. If she was merely being stupid, then she was stupid (and shouldn't do that), and rape has still occurred and should be punished.
    being killed is not a choice .
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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Which falls under the same umbrella, depending on who's making the statement, as "if she hadn't dressed slutty, rape would not have occurred."
    Well, no. Rapists tend (generally) not to care about the choice of clothing of the victim.

    So again, you're just restating the vagueness of the topic.
    No I am not. People who make stupid decisions are responsible for those decisions and people who make criminal decisions are responsible for those decisions. Most of life doesn't break down into white hats v black hats, the perfectly good and wise v the perfectly evil and craven.

    What you're guilty of, and to an extent so am I, is the equivalent of "I don't know what pornography is, but I know it when I see it."
    Hm. Can you elaborate on that?

    Then you didn't get the context of those discussions. Even those vile enough to make such a statement as "she was asking for it" still go on to say that the attacker should be thrown in jail for rape, thus showing the statement to not be literal. What is meant by that is that the woman's choice of clothing bore responsibility for the rape.
    no. Asking for sex =/= asking for rape.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well, no. Rapists tend (generally) not to care about the choice of clothing of the victim.



    No I am not. People who make stupid decisions are responsible for those decisions and people who make criminal decisions are responsible for those decisions. Most of life doesn't break down into white hats v black hats, the perfectly good and wise v the perfectly evil and craven.



    Hm. Can you elaborate on that?



    no. Asking for sex =/= asking for rape.
    Forget it, we're talking past each other.

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    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    ?Victim blaming? judge says murdered girl put herself ?in vulnerable position? ? RT UK



    Then cue strawmen and accusations of “victim blaming.”



    There is a fine line between actual statements of victim blaming (she dressed slutty, she was asking for it, etc) and statements of fact regarding a dangerous position one can put him/herself in. To categorize both under the umbrella of “victim blaming” makes a farce of even the most basic notions of self preservation and good judgment.

    I think the article and the comments under it are muddied by the fact that the victim is a woman. Let’s replace the gender and say a man drinks far too much at a club and is subsequently mugged while walking home. I don’t think there would be much debate on the claim that if the man had drank less so that he was in control of how he got home, he would likely have not gotten mugged. He would have made a less convenient target, he would have walked in a more straight-line trajectory to his destination or, what many people typically do at the end of a night, just take a taxi thus eliminating their exposure to any dangerous elements altogether.

    Where do you draw the line between a basic observation that one must take control of their preservation, exercising control over themselves and the environment they may find themselves in…and “victim blaming?”


    Because it is a woman, there will be a reflexive outcry of "victim blaming!" from certain expected quarters.

    Had it been a man, probably not so much, as you point out.


    As you say there's a difference between ACTUALLY blaming the victim, and pointing out where the victim made bad choices that made him/her vulnerable or liable to criminal assault.



    To go to a personal example, when my best friend-like-a-brother was murdered in his place of business due to a robbery-turned-multiple-murder, I could not help myself from analyzing his decisions and finding three critical errors he made which, had he chosen differently, might well have saved his life. One was being too trusting of someone just because he knew them slightly... that was actually the big one because it led to the rest... the other two being opportunities to run (albeit at danger of being shot in the process) that he should have taken if he'd realized they were not going to spare his life.

    In no way did this mean I was BLAMING him for his own murder... oh no far from it, I BLAMED the two assholes who killed him.... but recognizing that there were mistakes in judgment made that could have changed the outcome. Things that others could LEARN FROM about how to not end up in the same boat.


    For instance, I know better than to go to a biker bar at 2AM and yell "HARLEY DAVIDSON SUCKS" at the top of my voice.... I'd be lucky to survive, I'd almost certainly be beaten to a pulp, and it is a predictable outcome.


    But apparently if you tell young women "don't get falling-down drunk and go off with some man you just met", as a cautionary suggestion, that's somehow wrong.

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