Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 11 to 18 of 18

Thread: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

  1. #11
    Almost respectable
    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    33,385

    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Because it is a woman, there will be a reflexive outcry of "victim blaming!" from certain expected quarters.

    Had it been a man, probably not so much, as you point out.


    As you say there's a difference between ACTUALLY blaming the victim, and pointing out where the victim made bad choices that made him/her vulnerable or liable to criminal assault.



    To go to a personal example, when my best friend-like-a-brother was murdered in his place of business due to a robbery-turned-multiple-murder, I could not help myself from analyzing his decisions and finding three critical errors he made which, had he chosen differently, might well have saved his life. One was being too trusting of someone just because he knew them slightly... that was actually the big one because it led to the rest... the other two being opportunities to run (albeit at danger of being shot in the process) that he should have taken if he'd realized they were not going to spare his life.

    In no way did this mean I was BLAMING him for his own murder... oh no far from it, I BLAMED the two assholes who killed him.... but recognizing that there were mistakes in judgment made that could have changed the outcome. Things that others could LEARN FROM about how to not end up in the same boat.


    For instance, I know better than to go to a biker bar at 2AM and yell "HARLEY DAVIDSON SUCKS" at the top of my voice.... I'd be lucky to survive, I'd almost certainly be beaten to a pulp, and it is a predictable outcome.


    But apparently if you tell young women "don't get falling-down drunk and go off with some man you just met", as a cautionary suggestion, that's somehow wrong.
    True, but your explanation doesn't get to the heart of the nuance between the two in a clear and objective manner. If those who you or I would agree were engaging in victim blaming claimed that the rapist/attacker should not be prosecuted, then the difference would not be elusive. But when those who who say "she was dressing slutty" also say the attacker should be prosecuted, then there is a line between "personal responsibility" and "victim blaming" that is not so easy to explain.

    Personally, I think what the judge said spoke to personal responsibility and not victim blaming, but I lack the clarity or nuance myself to state why I believe this. Keep in mind: both those who make statements about personal responsibility and victim blamers both advocate "personal responsibility and good judgment," and both believe the attacker should be in jail (except for the odd nutball here and there). So where's the line between the two?

  2. #12
    Sage
    sangha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley, NY
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 04:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    59,990

    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Even those who have used the line "she was asking for it" have stated that the perpetrator in an attack should be held accountable to the law.
    That's not entirely true.

    Often, the "she was asking for it" was an argument that the act was consensual so therefore there was no rape.
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  3. #13
    Almost respectable
    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    33,385

    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Here's where the concept of "victim blaming" really goes off a rail. Posted in a woman's bathroom in an air force base is this advisory:

    “Pay attention to your surroundings.” “Be prepared to get yourself home.” “Socialize with people who share your values.”
    One woman (an armed forces veteran, fwiw) saw this and accused the advisory of sending a harmful message, claiming that if one is attacked the poster is essentially judging the victim for any steps she may not have taken to protect herself, thus blaming the victim. And keep in mind her response is to a hypothetical attack, not one that even happened.

    Teaching Prevention is Not ‘Blaming the Victim’

    My point isn't actually to point and make fun of those who make the claim foolishly, but to shed light on a confusing aspect between personal responsibility and victim blaming. The national dialogue lacks a clear definition, and needs one kind of importantly.

  4. #14
    Almost respectable
    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    33,385

    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by sangha View Post
    That's not entirely true.

    Often, the "she was asking for it" was an argument that the act was consensual so therefore there was no rape.
    It's the internet: someone's going to make that claim now and again because awful, awful people thrive on the internet. In my experience, however, that argument is an outlier. I don't find it to be the norm even among socially regressive people.

  5. #15
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:40 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    43,597

    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    True, but your explanation doesn't get to the heart of the nuance between the two in a clear and objective manner. If those who you or I would agree were engaging in victim blaming claimed that the rapist/attacker should not be prosecuted, then the difference would not be elusive. But when those who who say "she was dressing slutty" also say the attacker should be prosecuted, then there is a line between "personal responsibility" and "victim blaming" that is not so easy to explain.

    Personally, I think what the judge said spoke to personal responsibility and not victim blaming, but I lack the clarity or nuance myself to state why I believe this. Keep in mind: both those who make statements about personal responsibility and victim blamers both advocate "personal responsibility and good judgment," and both believe the attacker should be in jail (except for the odd nutball here and there). So where's the line between the two?

    As you say, the difference is somewhat subtle.

    From my own perspective about the personal criminal incident with my friend, my attitude towards his errors in judgment were expressed as laments.... "oh WHY did he open the door to those guys? He knew them but he shouldn't have trusted them," and "oh WHY didn't he take off running when they pushed him out of the van? They might have shot at him but they might have missed, rather than shooting him point-blank in the head as they planned."

    It is a lament, a regret, and a caution for others.


    Now if the person in any way says or implies that an error in judgment means the victim somehow DESERVED it, or "asked for it", or similar attitude then the line has been crossed.


    You can say "this was a bad choice", and you can say "this bad choice left so-n-so open to this criminal assault", and you can say "Learn from this and don't make the same mistakes", IMO.... but when you start implying the victim had it coming you've crossed the line.


    Yeah you're right it is hard to explain exactly where the line is...

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #16
    Sage
    sangha's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Lower Hudson Valley, NY
    Last Seen
    09-17-17 @ 04:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    59,990

    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    It's the internet: someone's going to make that claim now and again because awful, awful people thrive on the internet. In my experience, however, that argument is an outlier.
    It's certainly less common these days, but at one time it was not.

    Half the population has a below-average intelligence. That being the case, even the simplest of concepts will be misunderstood by some people. The concept of victim blaming, being a little more nuanced, is sure to be difficult for many
    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Justice Thomas' opinions consistently contain precise, detailed constitutional analyses.
    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    the vast majority of folks that need healthcare are on Medicare.. both rich and poor..

  7. #17
    Professor
    Un biased's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Last Seen
    05-30-16 @ 09:41 AM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    1,642

    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    The female did put her self in a relativelly vulnerable position its not victim blaming as its more of a statement. If the judge implied that the crime was null or had denoted it then it would be a form of victim blaming.
    personal responsibility goes both ways the female should of been somewhat aware of her surroundings , and at the same time the person who had committed the crime surely should have the mental ability to restrain themselves and not commit such terrible acts in the first place.
    Guinea pigs are amazing furry creatures !!

  8. #18
    Almost respectable
    Cardinal's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 09:46 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    33,385

    Re: ‘Victim blaming’ judge says murdered girl put herself ‘in vulnerable position’

    Quote Originally Posted by Un biased View Post
    The female did put her self in a relativelly vulnerable position its not victim blaming as its more of a statement. If the judge implied that the crime was null or had denoted it then it would be a form of victim blaming.
    personal responsibility goes both ways the female should of been somewhat aware of her surroundings , and at the same time the person who had committed the crime surely should have the mental ability to restrain themselves and not commit such terrible acts in the first place.
    Your post actually helps to clarify at least one part of the definition of victim blaming: if the intent is to minimize the act of the attacker in any way, that would certainly be victim blaming.

    E.g. "Well can you blame him? Look how she was dressing!" "Can you blame him for mugging the drunk guy? Who wouldn't beat him up and take his wallet?"

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •