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Thread: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Quote Originally Posted by TextDriversKill View Post
    What about the american pilots who killed millions of civilians by dropping bombs on cities?
    To end a war not accelerate it. The killing of 3 million Jews was to remove them from the face of the earth and they would have given the opportunity.
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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    I totally agree that those who kept the cogs of the holocaust going are complicit in all those deaths. Thing is, this guy feels the same way. Over the decades, he has been setting holocaust deniers straight by telling them, "you are wrong, I was there, I saw it all."

    His sentence should certainly take that into consideration.

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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Quote Originally Posted by DiAnna View Post
    I totally agree that those who kept the cogs of the holocaust going are complicit in all those deaths. Thing is, this guy feels the same way. Over the decades, he has been setting holocaust deniers straight by telling them, "you are wrong, I was there, I saw it all."

    His sentence should certainly take that into consideration.
    It's not like he has much time left on this planet so I doubt the sentence will be anything above a nice old folks home for criminals. He'll be fed, have his poop cleaned and somebody will make his bed everyday. I'd be really shocked if they decided to bring the guy anywhere near a real prison.
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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Threegoofs View Post
    And remember- it was intentional that civilians were targeted- the Dresden firebombing and Tokyo are good examples of the Allies basically targeting women and children.
    Of course it was intentional. They weren't trying to bomb a forest and missed. The allies had a policy of massive urban bombing to destroy civilian morale but many experts say it didn't work. The germans kept right on building planes and tanks till the end. You have to kill the soldiers.

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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Quote Originally Posted by TextDriversKill View Post
    What about the american pilots who killed millions of civilians by dropping bombs on cities?
    If you want to discuss exterior events, then create dedicated threads on those topics rather than hijack this one.

    This particular thread is specifically about the trial of former SS Sgt. Oskar Groening in Lueneburg, Germany.

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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Quote Originally Posted by Hatuey View Post
    It's not like he has much time left on this planet so I doubt the sentence will be anything above a nice old folks home for criminals. He'll be fed, have his poop cleaned and somebody will make his bed everyday. I'd be really shocked if they decided to bring the guy anywhere near a real prison.
    He can be sentenced to a maximum of 15 years in prison. Mr. Groening has told reporters that he expects an acquittal.

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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    Of course all who participated in this process has a measure of culpability, not the least of which are thousands of far more guilty Nazi's that managed to escape serious penal punishment or the gallows. None the less, 'every German alive who profited' and those who 'inherited' any benefit must be vanishingly small. Anyone familiar with the post-war impoverishment, hunger and destitution of Germany, the millions of German refugees from Prussia and from what is now western Poland, the imposition of Communism, etc. left 'the inheritors' with little more than ash in their pockets.

    I suggest you see the movie "The Reader". While the story is about an illiterate former concentration camp guard who helped seal 300 prisoners in a burning church to prevent their escape (causing all their deaths), whatever the viewer thinks of her state of mind I found the reactions of the younger Germans portrayed to be the most intriguing. Their total incredulity that their own fathers and grand-fathers would have participated in such a horror, and the uncomprehending and pitiless contempt the young Germans had for their parent's/grandparents generational actions is almost shocking.

    Justice was cheated, as knowledge of the hundreds/thousands who escaped to South America and elsewhere should remind us. The best we can do is to make sure that we "never forget".
    Of course the country was impoverished after the war, as were the surviving slaves or the children of the dead slaves, who grew up without parents. But think of one of many examples. The Quant family that retained its assets outside the Reich and rebuilt its economic wealth with those assets employing thousands of Germans in their companies that had used up so many slaves only a few years earlier. They now own most of BMW and are the substance of the wealth of the population. The children are inheriting a functioning society built with money that the slaves should have got. Take the loans the Greeks were forced to make the Germans by the Wehrmacht during the war and the towns the Germans destroyed. After the war these villages were not restored by the Germans and the loans were never repaid. Someone got that money and was able to rebuild Germany instead of Greece.

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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Of course the country was impoverished after the war, as were the surviving slaves or the children of the dead slaves, who grew up without parents. But think of one of many examples. The Quant family that retained its assets outside the Reich and rebuilt its economic wealth with those assets employing thousands of Germans in their companies that had used up so many slaves only a few years earlier. They now own most of BMW and are the substance of the wealth of the population. The children are inheriting a functioning society built with money that the slaves should have got. Take the loans the Greeks were forced to make the Germans by the Wehrmacht during the war and the towns the Germans destroyed. After the war these villages were not restored by the Germans and the loans were never repaid. Someone got that money and was able to rebuild Germany instead of Greece.
    I am not disagreeing with the moral concerns you express, but I think it as too simplistic. The Quandt fortune started long before WWII, when Gunther Quandt married the daughter of a rich textile manufacturer and then took charge of the company in 1883. In WWII he made an even greater fortune in WWI making uniforms, acquiring many firms in Germany and abroad prior to the second world war.

    I am skeptical of the assumption that forced labor (which sometimes was a 'choice' foiced on the companies) made a huge difference in their profits or net worth after the war. There is no doubt that WWII dried up civilian (and international) sales but that it also created new huge sales for Germany's war effort - still, the calculus is very unclear. The 'ledger' would have to calculated the net difference in profits from what "would have been" without a war (positive or negative), deduct the cost of massive destruction of family factories, and the marginal gain (if any) from using unskilled forced labor rather than skilled free labor.

    No one believes the Quandt's should have used forced labor, nor that in some factories (the AFA battery plant) conditions were appalling. But the assumption that the children are "inheriting a functioning society" built with the net difference in the cost between forced and wage labor (the money the forced labor should have been paid) is highly dubious - the Quandt's were got quite rich PRIOR to the war using free labor (like most industrialists).

    In other words, had all industrialists used free labor they would have still profited (as they did in WWI) and there would still have been a society to inherit.

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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Dup post

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    Re: Auschwitz bookkeeper admits "moral guilt" at Holocaust trial

    Quote Originally Posted by maxparrish View Post
    I am not disagreeing with the moral concerns you express, but I think it as too simplistic. The Quandt fortune started long before WWII, when Gunther Quandt married the daughter of a rich textile manufacturer and then took charge of the company in 1883. In WWII he made an even greater fortune in WWI making uniforms, acquiring many firms in Germany and abroad prior to the second world war.

    I am skeptical of the assumption that forced labor (which sometimes was a 'choice' foiced on the companies) made a huge difference in their profits or net worth after the war. There is no doubt that WWII dried up civilian (and international) sales but that it also created new huge sales for Germany's war effort - still, the calculus is very unclear. The 'ledger' would have to calculated the net difference in profits from what "would have been" without a war (positive or negative), deduct the cost of massive destruction of family factories, and the marginal gain (if any) from using unskilled forced labor rather than skilled free labor.

    No one believes the Quandt's should have used forced labor, nor that in some factories (the AFA battery plant) conditions were appalling. But the assumption that the children are "inheriting a functioning society" built with the net difference in the cost between forced and wage labor (the money the forced labor should have been paid) is highly dubious - the Quandt's were got quite rich PRIOR to the war using free labor (like most industrialists).

    In other words, had all industrialists used free labor they would have still profited (as they did in WWI) and there would still have been a society to inherit.
    Of course, I know the Quant history in more detail than I used. A good part of the cash i mentioned was earned outside the Reich as far as I know. But that doesn't mean that the cash should be eexempt from the rest of the fortune or should have been withheld from his slaves and/or their decedents. Why did they not get compensation, while the money was used to finance the wirtschaftswunder? And sure the industrialists were under pressure to use slaves. A number that did not amply comply lost their positions or even in a few cases their lives, if I correctly recall. But that is hardly enough justification for their keeping the cash and the slaves going home starved and broken. Their using the money to rebuild the wealth of the fatherland, while the others....etc.

    This is btw not a gripe with industrialists or the Quant family or anything like that. I am mostly interested in the way so broad based severe crime was handled after the regime that had legalized the criminal behavior of the population was deposed. I am interested in the continuing repercussions from this method of dealing with one's societies breakdown of civil behavior and conscious bestiality.

    Germany is not the only country to have undergone this type of process. It is the one I was able to watch best.

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