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Thread: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    There are other rulings and many circumstances re: probable cause. There's a very good chance that that one will not play when all circumstances are examined in court. It's certainly not the only ruling on the legitimacy of probable cause. It's one of the more 'flexible' ones due to so many variables and often manipulated.

    Again, the case will get very intense legal scrutiny because of the publicity.
    Oh, I see...you think the trials will stay in the Baltimore venue...unlikely. No justice would be seeved by that.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    1. I provide accurate information, which is not being an apologist.
    Saying such is just an indication of your own bias.

    2. Your reply reveals that you do not know what you are talking about and haven't paid attention to the information provided.

    It doesn't matter that is came after.

    Lets walk through this. Again!

    They had "reasonable suspicion" to give chase and detain.
    They are allowed to search while he was detained.

    That search produced an illegal weapon.
    That weapon gave them "probable cause" to arrest. Period.


    Even if the weapon hadn't been illegal (which it is) and they were simply mistaken in believing it to be, that mistake is still a good faith belief that it violated the law and still provided the necessary probable cause to arrest. Probable cause can still be based on a mistaken belief.
    Do you or do you not understand this?






    Fmr Deputy Baltimore State’s Atty: Mosby’s Police Charges ‘Incompetent at Best’








    They didn't need to be aware of the knife prior to giving chase.
    They had reasonable suspicion after seeing what appeared to be a drug transaction.






    And?
    Totally irrelevant to this van ride, as there is no evidence that it was a "rough/nickle ride". Only evidence of the opposite. A smooth ride.
    That video is a great example of how a biased media tries to drive a narrative. Notice when the female CNN anchor tries to jump in on this woman, her question was designed to insinuate racism, and she had to answer it not once, but twice.

    A competant system would immediately over ride Mosby, and recuse her from this case to start over.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Post #375. Thanks for playing.
    Let me highlight the point we were discussing

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    Frankly speaking, if I was riding in the back of a van with my hands cuffed behind my back, I would not want to be buckled in. If there is an emergency, I would be unable to unbuckle myself
    Funny how your side has to make stuff up in almost every discussion

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    Let me highlight the point we were discussing



    Funny how your side has to make stuff up in almost every discussion
    First of all, I don't have "a side". I didn't make anything up, either. I have only quoted you.

    Secondly, the seatbelt is ancillary to escape if a person is locked in a cage.. Tell me, how does a person escape a fire, for example, if they are are locked in a cage?

    The seatbelt is useful for restraining a person against the normal violence of traffic; it does not make someone less able to escape a locked cage, no more than the cage itself already inhibits escape.

    Tell me... Is it possible to make a dead person "more dead" than they already are? Because I contend that it is impossible to make someone less able to escape if they are already unable to escape.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    First of all, I don't have "a side". I didn't make anything up, either. I have only quoted you.

    Secondly, the seatbelt is ancillary to escape if a person is locked in a cage.. Tell me, how does a person escape a fire, for example, if they are are locked in a cage?

    The seatbelt is useful for restraining a person against the normal violence of traffic; it does not make someone less able to escape a locked cage, no more than the cage itself already inhibits escape.

    Tell me... Is it possible to make a dead person "more dead" than they already are? Because I contend that it is impossible to make someone less able to escape if they are already unable to escape.
    All I said was that if it were me, I would not want to be belted in if I was cuffed. You took offense to that and tried to make it about being cuffed (making stuff up) when it was about being belted in.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    All I said was that if it were me, I would not want to be belted in if I was cuffed. You took offense to that and tried to make it about being cuffed (making stuff up) when it was about being belted in.
    And if it were me and I was handcuffed, with no way to prop myself up, break a fall, or support myself, I would hope I was belted in.

    When I pointed this out, you intoned that you would want freedom to be able to escape some nebulous concept of an emergency....from a locked cage that you already can't escape from.

    Face it, it just wasn't a very well thought out point. Its ok. We all do it from time to time.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Oh, I see...you think the trials will stay in the Baltimore venue...unlikely. No justice would be seeved by that.
    No, not at all. Do you live in Baltimore? I dont. And yet we both seem interested in the outcome and are part of the public that is kept in mind.
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    No, not at all. Do you live in Baltimore? I dont. And yet we both seem interested in the outcome and are part of the public that is kept in mind.
    I lived in the Balto area for twenty years, I have a pretty good idea what goes on there.
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    And if it were me and I was handcuffed, with no way to prop myself up, break a fall, or support myself, I would hope I was belted in.

    When I pointed this out, you intoned that you would want freedom to be able to escape some nebulous concept of an emergency....from a locked cage that you already can't escape from.

    Face it, it just wasn't a very well thought out point. Its ok. We all do it from time to time.
    You're free to believe that, but I would still prefer not to be belted in giving myself a far better chance in the event of an emergency

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Sources: Baltimore police, State's Attorney Marilyn Mosby.

    Unquoted and actually unsourced.
    And then we have the fact that Mosby is an established liar.


    This bit about he was unresponsive does not mean he was unable to respond like he was at the final stop.
    This stop referenced that he was helped to get on the bench, not forcible put on the bench. You do understand what helped means right? That's an indication that he was conscious.

    And as we know the witness says he was banging his head and thrashing about, so we know he was conscious.
    And as already pointed out asking for an inhaler is faking when he is obvious breathing fine and screaming.

    Your "apparently needs medical attention because of breathing" argument fails.
    What they called for was an ambulance at that stop was for a believed broken arm.
    But then decided to take him to the station.

    For more accuracy, try this out.
    Sourced through video reports.

    Freddie Gray Timeline

    You keep ignoring that self inflicted is the evidence.
    We have already been told that that is what this sounded like to the witness.
    And a person thrashing around and banging their head during a smooth ride speaks to self infliction as well.

    To show otherwise you are going to have to show, by evidence, that it was not self inflicted.

    And again. Thrashing and banging his head during a smooth ride speaks to his injuries being from his own actions and thus self inflicted.
    As I said before, there were only two occasions where Freddie Gray's neck injury could have been self-inflicted per the established timeline:

    1) The initial 7 minutes between 8:39 and 8:46 prior to being shackled; and,

    2) The 25 minutes from 8:39 - 9:24 en route to the police precinct.

    Considering that there was no witnesses to hear him banging his head against the wall during the initial 7 minutes, I think it's safe to say the alleged head banging had to have taken place between 8:59 and 9:24.

    According to the timeline (and the preliminary investigation report):

    TIME UNKNOWN (after 8:59) — Van makes fourth stop. Goodson and Porter respond to a request for additional units and are met by Nero, Miller, Porter and Rice. Gray is unresponsive on the floor. Sgt. Alicia White, who is investigating complaints related to Gray's arrest, speaks to the back of Gray's head, but he doesn't respond. A second prisoner is loaded into the wagon. Gray is no longer breathing.
    Granted, Gray was able to speak to police on the scene at the third stop reported at 8:59 and it's at this point where Gray would have been able to bang his head against the wall AND be heard/observed by Donte Allen, the 2nd detainee. But by the fourth stop (which doesn't have a time stamp), he's found to be "unresponsive on the floor" and is "no longer breathing". How long was it between the time Donte Allen was picked up and the police found Gray to be unresponsive on the floor and not breathing? That's the question that needs to be answered. Furthermore, if Gray's neck injury did take place at 8:54 per the timeline - at least 5 minutes before the 4th stop - it's highly unlikely he'd be able to bang his head against the wall at all at this point.

    It will be interesting to see how this all plays out because I don't think this case is as cut-and-dry as some folks believe. There are questions that need to be answered. If it turns out that Gray did injure himself because he was throwing a hissy fit in the back of the van, then Baltimore, MD and the nation gets to close the book on another "thug" who in the minds of many "got what he deserved" and those who believed he was wrong from the beginning will get to say, "See, I told you it was his own damned fault". But if it turns out to be negligence on the part of the Baltimore PD, maybe this case will prompt them to amend their detainee security and transport safety procedures (again, as necessary).

    With that, I'm out.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 05-07-15 at 08:55 PM.
    "A fair exchange ain't no robbery." Tupac Shakur w/Digital Underground

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