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Thread: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by nota bene View Post
    Why wasn't Gray wearing a seatbelt?
    They don't say, probably will come out at trial, but none the less, he wasn't belted in...
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    This comment makes no sense as a reply to what you quoted.
    What you quoted indicated the need to make changes to false claims. The fact that they hadn't changed, was the point.
    I apologies for the confusion here. A little refresher, however, is in order. I wrongly stated that Freddie Gray was not running from police when he was arrested (See post #311, page 32 to this thread http://www.debatepolitics.com/breaki...post1064580670 for details), but I quickly corrected myself after learning more about his arrest. So, the fault for the confusion here is mine. Nonetheless, this doesn't change anything I've said concerning how Freddie Gray may have sustained his neck injury nor who I believe is responsible for his injury and subsequent death.

    Yes he (Donte Allen) has and he even stated why he has changed it (his story about what he heard during the ride to the police station).
    And that reason casts what he now says in doubt, as already stated several times.
    And yet you continue to use his flimsy testimony as clear evidence as to what happened on Freddie Gray's side of the police van when all Donte Allen heard was "4-seconds" of "a little banging" coming from Freddie Gray's side.

    Why are you remaking my points? That is an obvious indication that he was moving around on his own because he had to turn himself around to receive injury from the rear of the van.
    You're really stretching things here in an attempt to force your interpretation of what happened inside the rear-right detainee section of the police van to fit what actually happened when in truth no one knows for sure what happened. But I enjoyed reading this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Put the relevant information together. He was thrashing around in the back of the van which did not speed, make sudden stops or was driven erratically. He did this thrashing for the supposed five minutes the other arrestee was in the van. This thrashing stopped just before they arrived at their destination. That would indicate that he fatally injured himself at that point in time. Not from or during his resisting arrest. Which would indicate that it was not caused by the arresting Officers.
    And then more recently this...


    No I do not ignore that.
    We already know that the supposed witness, as revealed by the Commissioner, said that the other guy was thrashing around and banging his head.
    Do you think he would be up with a broken neck and a crushed voice box thrashing around and banging his head?
    That means he was up and about, and is an indication that the injury happened to him when the witness was on the other side during that smooth ride.
    Two separate timelines along with Donte Allen's own statement indicate that the so-called "thrashing" did not occur during the time Donte Allen was a detainee. He only heard 4-seconds of "little banging" and then silence which falls right in line with the estimated time Freddie Gray sustained his neck injury which according to both timelines was 15 minutes after he was arrested, but 5-minutes before Donte Allen became detainee #2.

    Continued...
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 05-04-15 at 06:01 PM.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    (Continued from previous post...)


    Asking for proof of an argument like I did, is not the same as saying a person has no proof in an argument of the evidence like you did.
    Another minor issue, but it warrants pointing out your hypocrisy here. You asked me to prove that Freddie Gray's neck injury wasn't self-inflected then turn around and insist that another poster "stop the proof argument". Kinda one-sided don't you think?...demanding proof on the one hand but insisting that posters stop asking you to do the same when your arguments don't pan out. It's quite laughable really. In any case, while I can't prove that Freddie Gray's neck injury was not self-inflicted, the autopsy report makes it clear that it is highly unlikely that he inflicted such a severe injury unto himself.

    And thus far no one has been able to show any medical treatment was required prior to the arrival at their destination, which is where is was provided.
    His lying about needing an inhaler when he was obviously breathing fine and screaming does not necessitate that he be given treatment.

    ...

    Yes it is very debatable.
    His requesting does not mean he needs it.
    And yet...

    8:59 a.m. — Van makes third stop. Goodson asks for an additional unit to check on Gray. Officer William Porter and Goodson check on Gray. Gray asks for help, says he can't breathe and asks twice for a medic. Porter helps Gray onto the bench.

    TIME UNKNOWN — Van makes fourth stop. Goodson and Porter respond to a request for additional units and are met by Nero, Miller, Porter and Rice. Gray is unresponsive on the floor. Sgt. Alicia White, who is investigating complaints related to Gray's arrest, speaks to the back of Gray's head, but he doesn't respond. A second prisoner is loaded into the wagon. Gray is no longer breathing. Porter helps Gray onto the bench*.
    *See A timeline of Freddie Gray's arrest on April 12

    So, if at some time after 8:59 a.m. when the on-scene police officers checked on Freddie Gray a third time and found their suspect/detainee to be "unresponsive", don't you think that would have been the perfect time to request paramedics be dispatched to the scene especially when someone in their custody is no longer breathing? You see, it doesn't matter whether you or anyone else believed he was faking his injuries earlier. What matters is how and if law enforcement responded to his medical needs when it became apparent the he needed medical attention. The fact that "Officer Goodson asked for an additional unit to check on Gray" is a strong indication that they knew something was wrong with their suspect.

    There is no irony there at all.
    All of this has been previously pointed out.

    The acceptance of what he says should be based on the surrounding circumstances at the time he made them.

    In the case of what he supposedly said to the Police, there exists no reason to doubt he was being truthful. They were made immediately, without any known coercion or in return for any benefit.

    His statements now are suspect and he himself tells us why he is saying what he is.
    That is a form of coercion placed upon him by his community, and is made in return of a benefit for him. His life.
    The above all relates to Donte Allen's statement of events which as I said (and it would appear we both agree) don't require re-hashing. But making claims that Gray's injury was self-inflicted without taking the events of all that occurred into account subsequent to his arrest, being shackled and placed head-first in the back of the van really does make such claims sound ridiculous.

    8:46 a.m. - Lieutenant Rice directed the van driver, Officer Caesar R. Goodson Jr., to stop. Officers Miller and Nero and Lieutenant Rice removed Mr. Gray from the van and placed him in leg restraints. Mr. Gray was loaded head first onto the floor of the van.
    You can argue that he somehow managed to turn himself around while laying on his stomach with his hands cuffed behind his back at the wrist and his ankles in shackles after having been placed on the floor of the van, but when taking his restraints, his physical position in such a confined space into account AND the fact that he was originally placed in the back of the van head-first, the only part that makes sense as to how Freddie Gray could have possibly gotten himself into position where his head is at the back of the van was when he was helped on the bench by Officer Porter but still not secured in a seatbelt. This quite possibly is when Freddie Gray falls to the floor, slams his head on the bolt and breaks his neck.
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 05-04-15 at 06:02 PM.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post

    2. Freddie Grey saw police that day, and they saw him. When that happened he fled...That IS probable cause, so we can all just stop with the false narrative of no probable cause...
    LOL They had to have probable cause TO stop him, BEFORE he fled. The report said they did not.

    Fleeing after, will be similar to 'fruit of the poison tree,' it came from the illegal stop, so will not be chargeable.

    Of course if I was those cops, I'd be pretty creative on that 'probable cause' angle right now, however with the current political climate...whereas the cops can often play fast and loose with that.....the scrutiny will be exceptionally high.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by reinoe View Post
    You just keep spinning your wheels and cling to untrue statements to justify your reality.

    Freddie Gray 'did not hurt himself' says fellow rider - CNN.com

    He was more than happy to desperately latch onto and expound upon it!

    There was just a 'witness report'...one that, once again...he selectively chose to grasp and run with since it met his own agenda. "Selective evidence".....in general, his personal lifeline.

    Nothing objective about it.

    Some things are practically traps, like the falsified stories about his insurance claims...little bits of info heavily bolstered with enough 'honey' to attract.
    Last edited by Lursa; 05-04-15 at 06:32 PM.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #366
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    LOL They had to have probable cause TO stop him, BEFORE he fled. The report said they did not.

    Fleeing after, will be similar to 'fruit of the poison tree,' it came from the illegal stop, so will not be chargeable.

    Of course if I was those cops, I'd be pretty creative on that 'probable cause' angle right now, however with the current political climate...whereas the cops can often play fast and loose with that.....the scrutiny will be exceptionally high.
    Nope, you need to look a little closer at Urban policing....Like I said, Freddie Gray was known to the police as a drug user, and dealer. While on patrol, they make eye contact, and Freddie takes off...That I believe, unless you have something that proves it wrong other than you just refusing to think with common sense, IS probable cause to go after, and stop/detain Gray until they find out why he ran...
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by clownboy View Post
    Imagine the horror we would have faced when he was choked out by the seatbelt.
    Imagine the horror we all faced...and the cop that shot him...when the man that was behind on child support ran from being arrested and was shot fleeing?
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Nope, you need to look a little closer at Urban policing....Like I said, Freddie Gray was known to the police as a drug user, and dealer. While on patrol, they make eye contact, and Freddie takes off...That I believe, unless you have something that proves it wrong other than you just refusing to think with common sense, IS probable cause to go after, and stop/detain Gray until they find out why he ran...
    Doesnt matter.

    And I worked pretty closely with NYPD for 3 years.

    Not only that, there will be no wiggle room for these cops.

    You let me know when 'eye contact" is justification for chasing, physically harming, and then arresting a person....esp. one with NO current charges or outstanding warrants.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #369
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Further to Lursa...

    "Fleeing from police is not, by itself, illegal in America, and the U.S. Supreme Court has made clear that in safe neighborhoods, people not suspected of criminal activity can ignore a police officer who approaches them, even to the point of walking away.

    But courts have set a different standard for places where street crime is common, ruling that police can chase, stop and frisk people if their location contributes to a suspicion of criminal activity."

    Can You Run From Police? US Courts Apply a Double Standard - ABC News

    “There is a Supreme Court case that states that if you are in a high-crime area, and you flee from the police unprovoked, the police have the legal ability to pursue you, and that’s what they did,” Michael Davey told reporters on Wednesday. “In this type of an incident, you do not need probable cause to arrest. You just need a reasonable suspicion to make the stop.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/04/23/after-making-eye-contact-baltimore-chases-ferguson/
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Further to Lursa...

    "Fleeing from police is not, by itself, illegal in America, and the U.S. Supreme Court has made clear that in safe neighborhoods, people not suspected of criminal activity can ignore a police officer who approaches them, even to the point of walking away.

    But courts have set a different standard for places where street crime is common, ruling that police can chase, stop and frisk people if their location contributes to a suspicion of criminal activity."

    Can You Run From Police? US Courts Apply a Double Standard - ABC News

    “There is a Supreme Court case that states that if you are in a high-crime area, and you flee from the police unprovoked, the police have the legal ability to pursue you, and that’s what they did,” Michael Davey told reporters on Wednesday. “In this type of an incident, you do not need probable cause to arrest. You just need a reasonable suspicion to make the stop.”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2015/04/23/after-making-eye-contact-baltimore-chases-ferguson/
    Yeah, let's see how the grand jury handles this. "High crime area", "eye contact," and no current warrants? Good luck, esp. in the current...and very real, perceptually, climate of police abuse and killing.

    "No probable cause."

    He posed no visible (and I dont think he had any violent arrests either, maybe assault?) threat to the public. Good luck with 'reasonable suspicion.'
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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