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Thread: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

  1. #321
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Conflating a slip and fall accident with an intentionally self-inflicted fatal broken neck is brutally stupid.
    Your answer is again absurdly brutally stupid.

    There is no conflation. They are brought about by ones own actions.
    Slipping and falling while banging your head still is the result of your own actions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    That is sociopathic high school jock brutally stupid.
    So that is what you admit to being. Figures.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    which could have been easily avoided had the officers buckled Gray in, like their department-wide policy specified just three days before. Take a wild guess why such a memo was necessary.
    No one has shown it was necessary.
    But let me appease you with a guess. The none existent (in this case and therefore irrelevant) "nickel ride".

    And again, they said it wasn't done because of Officer safety.
    Whether you like that or not, that is the evidence we have to work with.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    So, do you believe the officers involved should be punished for failing to secure him in the back of the van?
    I don't know anything about these vans, so I don't know enough to say. But if it can be proven that the reason Mr Gray sustained injuries as a result of him not being secured, in violation with department policy, then yes, they should be disciplined. However, there was another prisoner in the vehicle with him who made it safely to jail. Also, I think people would have noticed a vehicle driving crazy on the road in order to throw him around as much as he would have needed to be thrown around to break his neck. There is reason to believe his injuries were self inflicted.
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  3. #323
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I've purposely waited until the initial police investigation report came out hoping it would provide some answers. Unfortunately, per this NYTimes article, it doesn't appear that the Baltimore PD is willing to disclose any of its findings on this case. Nonetheless, per the article it has been discovered that the police van that transported Freddie Gray made an undisclosed stop while enroute to the Baltimore police station.



    What was the purpose for the stop and why didn't it get reported? More important, what happened during the stop? Baltimore PD aren't telling.



    This is why I delayed responding to this incident so as not to prejudge events before the facts come out. All we know for sure is:

    - Yes, the area where Freddie Gray was stopped does have a high crime rate, mostly drug related.

    - Yes, Freddie Gray does have a police record (some drug related minor crimes).

    - No, we don't know that he was running police or if he was, why. Police have yet to explain why Freddie Gray was stopped and subsequently apprehended and taken into police custody other than:



    So, it would appear that claims that he was "running and resisting" would be inaccurate and premature at this point. We just don't know at this time why he was stopped in the first place and, as such, whether or not he had committed any crime prior to being apprehended.

    As to the mystery surrounding Freddie Gray's injuries that lead to his death...



    The video footage of his apprehension doesn't tell a clear picture of what all occurred. We do know that Freddie Gray:

    - was tased prior to being restrained on the ground.

    - had limited use of his legs (perhaps because they were bent cross-ways behind him as the two bicycle policemen held him down while back-up/reinforcements came on the scene).

    - was placed into additional leg restraints on the scene just prior to be being placed into the police van.

    - suffered sever injury to his neck (voice box) and spine (at the neck; reportedly 80% of his spine was severed at the neck) while in transit.



    The confirmed non-use of seatbelts to secure the suspect in the back of the police van (paddy wagon) would support your suspicions. Still, we don't know precisely what happened in this case. But what IS clear is that the victim died at the hands of the Baltimore PD from injuries that were likely suffered during an unreported stop while enroute to the police station. The question everyone should be asking (other than why was this young man stopped in the first place) is "What really happened during that stop?"
    Luckily we will know all this, when the head-cam recordings of the police are made available to the court.

  4. #324
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Objective Voice View Post
    I've purposely waited until the initial police investigation report came out hoping it would provide some answers. Unfortunately, per this NYTimes article, it doesn't appear that the Baltimore PD is willing to disclose any of its findings on this case. Nonetheless, per the article it has been discovered that the police van that transported Freddie Gray made an undisclosed stop while enroute to the Baltimore police station.
    There are many reasons that initial reports are not disclosed. That doesn't mean that anything nefarious is going on within the departments....

    What was the purpose for the stop and why didn't it get reported? More important, what happened during the stop? Baltimore PD aren't telling.
    Not yet anyway...But I do agree that the unreported stop without any supporting info is troubling, in the sense that it gives those looking to further the current meme whenever anything like this is in the news a reason to ramp up....


    This is why I delayed responding to this incident so as not to prejudge events before the facts come out. All we know for sure is:
    Would that others would hold judgement until we know the facts...But to be fair, you do kind of 'pre judge' a little, as is human nature...I'll point out where...

    - Yes, the area where Freddie Gray was stopped does have a high crime rate, mostly drug related.
    Yep, it's a bad section of Balto...When I lived in Maryland, I had a driving job early in my driving career that took me through these areas...I remember one time, while driving through, there was a group of young black men, not teens, but late teens early twenties, standing on the corner as I passed, when I heard a loud bang on the truck, just behind the drivers side window...When the guy that was riding with me, told me that that group of black men threw a brick at the truck....Why? because I was a white guy in their hood...I told a cop that was coming the other way, who did nothing, and told me to get out of there....

    - Yes, Freddie Gray does have a police record (some drug related minor crimes).
    Some? I'd say mostly drug related crimes...Couple being a known drug dealer, with seeing the cops, and running, and I'd say it wasn't going to end well from the jump...

    - No, we don't know that he was running police or if he was, why. Police have yet to explain why Freddie Gray was stopped and subsequently apprehended and taken into police custody other than:



    So, it would appear that claims that he was "running and resisting" would be inaccurate and premature at this point. We just don't know at this time why he was stopped in the first place and, as such, whether or not he had committed any crime prior to being apprehended.
    No, they are NOT inaccurate, According to the AP:

    "BALTIMORE (AP) — When police spotted Freddie Gray and he took off running through his Baltimore neighborhood, officers made a split-second decision to give chase, setting in motion his death in custody and rioting in the streets."

    A question in Baltimore’s Freddie Gray case: Can you run from police? | The Seattle Times

    Continued.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Continued.

    As to the mystery surrounding Freddie Gray's injuries that lead to his death...



    The video footage of his apprehension doesn't tell a clear picture of what all occurred. We do know that Freddie Gray:

    - was tased prior to being restrained on the ground.
    Ok, he was running, and resisting arrest...Are you suggesting he shouldn't have been tazed?

    - had limited use of his legs (perhaps because they were bent cross-ways behind him as the two bicycle policemen held him down while back-up/reinforcements came on the scene).
    Not sure you or I can make that kind of medical judgement based on shaky video clip...At two separate points while putting him in the van, it looks as though Freddie used his legs to steady himself....So, I don't know...

    - was placed into additional leg restraints on the scene just prior to be being placed into the police van.
    I didn't see that....At least in the video being shown over and over on different news programs...

    - suffered sever injury to his neck (voice box) and spine (at the neck; reportedly 80% of his spine was severed at the neck) while in transit.
    In transit is speculation...We don't know if it was then, or before....That was a pretty rough stone wall he was detained at before transport....

    The confirmed non-use of seatbelts to secure the suspect in the back of the police van (paddy wagon) would support your suspicions. Still, we don't know precisely what happened in this case. But what IS clear is that the victim died at the hands of the Baltimore PD from injuries that were likely suffered during an unreported stop while enroute to the police station. The question everyone should be asking (other than why was this young man stopped in the first place) is "What really happened during that stop?"
    Yep, and we will find out in due course...But no one should be calling for rushing to judgement before the facts are known, and the people involved have their day in court....I think it is disgusting that this "Mayor" Stephanie Rawlings Blake is so biased in this case, and has mishandled it in such a way as to fan the flames literally, both for the mob, and against her own police force....Anyone that thinks she is interested in truth here is smokin' crack...

    "Yes, they want answers, but they want answers in a way that will be protect their ability to get justice for Freddie Gray," Rawlings-Blake said.

    Baltimore Mayor Stephanie Rawlings-Blake on city's pain, resiliency after riots - CBS News

    She followed that up with "And that's my focus."

    So we know that her bent toward this investigation is NOT toward finding the truth, but slanted in the Sharpton esque meme of 'Justice for _________'!!!! Facts be damned.

    This is pathetic, and sad to watch...
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    There is no conflation. They are brought about by ones own actions.
    Slipping and falling while banging your head still is the result of your own actions.
    You just tried to tell me that you think Gray intentionally injured himself.

    Do you know the difference between intentionally and accidentally? What you just did is called a conflation.

    Conflation is bad debate. Bad! Shame on you.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You just tried to tell me that you think Gray intentionally injured himself.

    Do you know the difference between intentionally and accidentally? What you just did is called a conflation.

    Conflation is bad debate. Bad! Shame on you.
    More deflection.
    Your reply ignores that fact that isn't what occurred.

    Slipping and falling while banging your head still is the result of your own actions.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Slipping and falling while banging your head still is the result of your own actions.
    As usual, you're wrong:

    We need to remember that when police officers take a prisoner into custody they have just become “short term” corrections (custody) officers. This statement sometimes surprises street officers who often don’t understand all the implications of having a prisoner in their “custody.” It doesn’t matter whether you are a police officer transporting a prisoner from a street arrest scene, a police officer picking up a prisoner for court, a police officer transporting a sick inmate, a detective taking a prisoner out of lock up to a remote site for an interview, or an airport police officer holding a person for transport, you are now responsible for that prisoner’s “care and wellbeing.”
    And that statement comes from an article on the PoliceOne website, probably the most biased (and irrationally so) pro-police website on the Internets.

    When a cop takes someone into his care and custody through detention or arrest it is the cop's responsibility to ensure that person's safety and security.

    Makes sense, right?

    I mean, if you're a reasonable, rational, unbiased person. Maybe not if you're an anti-freedom, pro-police state "conservative".

    Anyhow, you can't handcuff someone, manacle them, throw them in a metal box in the back of a moving motor vehicle, and then act surprised if they somehow get injured as a result.

    Do that, and you're negligent.

    Do that and they die, you're taking a ride for involuntary manslaughter, at a minimum.
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  9. #329
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    More deflection.
    Your reply ignores that fact that isn't what occurred.

    Slipping and falling while banging your head still is the result of your own actions.

    intentional
    [in-ten-shuh-nl]

    adjective
    1. done with intention or on purpose; intended: an intentional insult.
    2. of or relating to intention or purpose.


    ac·ci·den·tal
    ˌaksəˈden(t)l/
    adjective
    adjective: accidental

    1. happening by chance, unintentionally, or unexpectedly.
    2. incidental; subsidiary.

    You just made the argument that he did it intentionally. If it were accidental, that is the officer's fault for not properly securing him in the van!

    Either way, you lose! Continually! And those with access to all of the FACTS just announced they are bringing a murder charge.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    No, based on the evidence.
    You seem to be forgetting that there is also an ear witness.
    An "ear" witness? Really, Excon? So, you're saying that what Donta Allen (the 2nd prisoner) thought he heard on the other side of a divided partition was actually what he claimed happened to Freddie Gray? You do realize that sometimes what people hear isn't exactly what truly occurred, right? Your ears more often than your eyes do play tricks on you. As such, it is possible that the thrashing about Donta Allen claims he heard and subsequently told homicide detectives was Freddie Gray's limb, unsecured body thrashing about inside a moving police van.

    He began by faking injury.
    You have no proof of that whatsoever.

    As it is normal for suspects to bang their heads and even kick to injure themselves..
    I agree sometimes suspects will cause injury to themselves in an attempt to blame it on police...

    ...and he was not being tossed about by the vans movement...
    You don't know that for sure. You're basing your assessment on Donta Allen's initial testimony which he, himself has recanted. So, how can you make such a claim when the only "ear" witness to what happened neither saw Freddie Gray banging his head against the van walls AND has changed his testimony AND admitted that he gave one story to homicide detectives and another to local police?

    ...that only leaves two possibilities, he was either trying to injure himself or was trying to escape, and the ear witness claims it sounded like he was trying injure himself.
    If Freddie Gray was trying to escape, don't you think the police would have secured him once they checked on him when they picked up Donta Allen? I've already dealt with the self-inflicted injury argument. No need to rehash that one. But...

    The fact that he did means he succeeded.
    Again, you have no proof that Freddie Gray's injuries were self-inflicted.

    Evidence says there was no "nickel ride".
    Pay attention this time.
    the man also said the driver did not speed, make sudden stops of "drive erratically."
    Again, you're relying on faulty testimony and refusing to accept the possibility that a suspect left loose, unsecured in the back of a moving van with limited mobility in his legs and his hands cuffed behind his back would NOT move around as said van is in motion transiting through the city. The man's not a fixed object! He's going to feel every bump and every turn. He's going to be "thrashed" around with the motion of the vehicle. If you doubt me, try being a passenger in a moving vehicle (traveling at 25 mph or more) WITHOUT A SEATBELT and hold yourself erect during a turn and see if you don't lean to either side. I doubt you can do it without grabbing hold to something. Go ahead...try it and get back to this board with your findings.
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