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Thread: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury[W:216]

  1. #301
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Off topic nonsense.
    My, my, my, you sure are quick to dismiss facts that don't conform to your beliefs.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    My, my, my, you sure are quick to dismiss facts that don't conform to your beliefs.


    Dismissed as irrelevant to the topic.
    Apparently you do not understand what facts are on topic and what aren't.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Holy ****!
    Your whole brutally dumb positions are based on assumptions.
    For all you know they thought he was faking injury. Which is what many criminals do. Or do you not know that?
    Besides that, the lack of a seatbelt may not have contributed to his injury at all. So stop assuming, when it is an absurd thing to do.
    Let me back this up for you.

    We were discussing whether or not his injuries were sustained during his arrest or after. If they happened after, that is on the officers as an excessive use of force. If they were during, however, that means failing to buckle him in and denying him medical attention for a half hour are is also on the officers (these two things were admitted by the Commissioner, if you'll recall).

    You made the argument that I was assuming the injuries happened while in custody, i.e. post arrest. You made the counter argument in post #280 that "His limp body is definitely an indication that he was injured during."

    So, either:
    1) He was harmed by excessive use of force when it wasn't called for (after his arrest), OR
    2) He was harmed during his arrest and left to flop around unsecured in the back of a moving vehicle, likely exacerbating any damage cause during his arrest, and delayed medical attention for over half an hour (both facts admitted by the Comissioner).

    Neither option makes the police look good.

    When you made the argument that he might have been injured during his arrest, and then excused the officers involved for failing to restrain him in the van "because he might not have been able to sit," that is an argument from brutal stupidity. You then made it worse by saying his injuries may not have warranted immediate medical care... injuries that just said would preclude him from sitting! You think these injuries were sustained during his arrest, meaning they are actually Gray's fault and he is ultimately responsible for them, so when he get's majorly messed up and can't sit, THAT'S his fault too, and he may not have needed medical care because he could have been faking it, so flopping around the van (which he would have done if paralyzed and unsecured) was also his fault! Do you think they didn't hear him bouncing around on stuff? Do you think they were intentionally ignoring him, or could they not hear him over their laughter?

    Brutally stupid. Perhaps wives should know better than to back talk their husbands, since that is the leading cause of knocked out teeth. Maybe women shouldn't wear clothes that reveal their faces or ankles because that gets them raped. Maybe children shouldn't cry so much because that makes mommy and daddy hit them with belts.

    Just... brutally stupid. At best - AT BEST - you could make the argument that Gray's recent surgery made him susceptible to injury and that the officers used the appropriate use of force in his arrest so the damage was unintentional. This argument would show the officer's actions in the best possible light... right up until you include the fact that he wasn't secured in the back of the van, and the fact that he didn't receive medical attention for so long when plenty of opportunities were passed up.

    Somebody took something too far somewhere and a man is dead because of it. It really doesn't matter if you think he was a scumbag, which he most surely was, but the police don't have the right to kill people, nor physically mistreat them while in custody, nor deny them care. I hope somebody goes to jail for this, so the small percentage of the police force who are straight up bullies will think twice before meting out their own brand of street justice.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post


    Dismissed as irrelevant to my beliefs.
    Apparently you do not understand what facts are on topic and what aren't.
    fify.
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    fify.
    Stop lying. I didn't say that.
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    *UPDATED* – Did Freddie Gray Have Spinal Surgery (From Prior Car Accident) A Week Before His Arrest?… | The Last Refuge

    Read this article, it explains the car accident case by stating it was not actually a car accident that he filled suit for, but for possible lead paint poisoning which occurred for several years due to lead based paint. This occurred while he was a developing teen. If you look at the effects of lead poisoning, one of the possible effects of long term exposure is that it effects bone development and in some cases can lead to Osteoporosis. If he had weakened bones due to lead exposure, it is more then possible that the struggle during his arrest may have caused the fatal injury, which then was made worse by moving his neck all over the place. If he had to be taserd when he was arrested, then he was resisting. The video only shows the arrest, and not what occurred prior, but based on the witnesses, he was taserd. If you look at his arrest record, he also does have an arrest for assault, so he was not only a drug dealer, but a potentially violent drug dealer. Which leads me to believe there is evidence that he resisted arrest, and based on a previous medical condition, was fatally injured during his arrest.
    So, do you believe the officers involved should be punished for failing to secure him in the back of the van?
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Stop lying. I didn't say that.
    And now you are running from the truth. I accused you of dismissing my earlier points, and you directly confessed to doing so in post 302.

    You're hiding something. Something that you don't want to talk about. Perhaps it's related to this story? Perhaps related to...race, maybe?
    "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons." --Hillary Rodham Clinton

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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Phys251 View Post
    And now you are running from the truth. I accused you of dismissing my earlier points, and you directly confessed to doing so in post 302.

    You're hiding something. Something that you don't want to talk about. Perhaps it's related to this story? Perhaps related to...race, maybe?
    You are speaking nonsense.
    You posted and irrelevant image to this discussion and it, as well as your reply, was dismissed as they are irrelevant.

    Clearly you do not understand what facts are on topic and what aren't.

    You then compounded that by lying.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Let me back this up for you.


    Again.

    Your whole brutally dumb positions are based on assumptions.
    For all you know they thought he was faking injury. Which is what many criminals do. Or do you not know that?
    Besides that, the lack of a seatbelt may not have contributed to his injury at all. So stop assuming when it is an absurd thing to do.

    We are not going to get anywhere until you stop making assumptions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    If they happened after, that is on the officers as an excessive use of force.
    That is an assumption.
    And as this topic has continued with newer information since then, he may have caused the injuries himself.
    Or he could have exacerbated an injury that he sustained when he resisted.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    If they were during, however, that means failing to buckle him in and denying him medical attention for a half hour are is also on the officers (these two things were admitted by the Commissioner, if you'll recall).
    No. It means no such thing, that is nothing more than your assumption.
    His failing to be seat-belted may not have contributed to his injuries.

    And again, they may have though he was faking injury.
    Even though it appeared he was limp, he then stood and ducked into the back of the van on his own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You made the argument that I was assuming the injuries happened while in custody, i.e. post arrest. You made the counter argument in post #280 that "His limp body is definitely an indication that he was injured during."

    Indication was underlined for a reason.
    Indication does not mean absolute.
    Please tell me you know that.
    And as already mentioned, he then stood and ducked into the back of the van on his own. Which very well could be an indication that he was faking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    So, either:
    No, there is no either about these.
    There are other possibilities, such as he purposely injured himself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    When you made the argument that he might have been injured during his arrest, and then excused the officers involved for failing to restrain him in the van "because he might not have been able to sit," that is an argument from brutal stupidity.
    Wrong.
    He may have been injured and the Police may have thought he was faking based on his ability to stand and duck.
    Clearly your brutal stupidity comment applies to your arguments only.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You then made it worse by saying his injuries may not have warranted immediate medical care...
    Wrong.
    I didn't make anything worse.
    A guy wanting his inhaler while obviously breathing and talking okay is an indication of faking.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    injuries that just said would preclude him from sitting!

    You can't make a guy sit who is forcing his body not to. That wold be brutality.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You think these injuries were sustained during his arrest, meaning they are actually Gray's fault and he is ultimately responsible for them, so when he get's majorly messed up and can't sit, THAT'S his fault too, and he may not have needed medical care because he could have been faking it, so flopping around the van (which he would have done if paralyzed and unsecured) was also his fault! Do you think they didn't hear him bouncing around on stuff? Do you think they were intentionally ignoring him, or could they not hear him over their laughter?
    Where do you get this flopping around bs from? If he is purposely thrashing, that is not flopping.

    Obviously you do not understand that he may have possibly been injured during his resistance and that the Police believed he was faking injury.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Brutally stupid.
    Yes I agree, your arguments are brutally stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Just... brutally stupid.
    Yes, I already agreed, your arguments are brutally stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    right up until you include the fact that he wasn't secured in the back of the van,
    No. There is nothing that connects the two.
    This is just another of your baseless assumptions.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    and the fact that he didn't receive medical attention for so long when plenty of opportunities were passed up.
    When it was known he was injured they called for medical attention immediately.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Somebody took something too far somewhere and a man is dead because of it.

    Another absurd assumption.


    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    I hope somebody goes to jail for this,
    If intentional, sure. If they accidentally caused it during his arrest as a result of his resisting, they should not face criminal charges.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    Re: Baltimore on edge after arrestee's fatal spine injury

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I had understood that the injury was not incurred on arrest but later.


    But we certainly do have a problem with our police and judiciary system.
    I've purposely waited until the initial police investigation report came out hoping it would provide some answers. Unfortunately, per this NYTimes article, it doesn't appear that the Baltimore PD is willing to disclose any of its findings on this case. Nonetheless, per the article it has been discovered that the police van that transported Freddie Gray made an undisclosed stop while enroute to the Baltimore police station.

    Completing their initial investigation into the fatal injury sustained by a young man in their custody, the Baltimore police on Thursday gave state prosecutors their findings, including the discovery that a police van carrying the man made a previously undisclosed stop en route to a police station.

    The new stop turned up on video taken from “a privately owned camera,” the deputy police commissioner, Kevin Davis, said, and it was “previously unknown to us.” That suggested that the officers involved had not told investigators about it.
    What was the purpose for the stop and why didn't it get reported? More important, what happened during the stop? Baltimore PD aren't telling.

    Quote Originally Posted by WCH View Post
    Another runner with a record.

    STOP running and resisting!
    This is why I delayed responding to this incident so as not to prejudge events before the facts come out. All we know for sure is:

    - Yes, the area where Freddie Gray was stopped does have a high crime rate, mostly drug related.

    - Yes, Freddie Gray does have a police record (some drug related minor crimes).

    - No, we don't know that he was running police or if he was, why. Police have yet to explain why Freddie Gray was stopped and subsequently apprehended and taken into police custody other than:

    Officers riding bicycles arrested Mr. Gray in the 1700 block of Presbury Street, in the Sandtown-Winchester neighborhood of northwest Baltimore. They charged him with illegal possession of a switchblade knife, and called a van to take him to the Western District police station.
    So, it would appear that claims that he was "running and resisting" would be inaccurate and premature at this point. We just don't know at this time why he was stopped in the first place and, as such, whether or not he had committed any crime prior to being apprehended.

    As to the mystery surrounding Freddie Gray's injuries that lead to his death...

    At some point, Mr. Gray suffered a severe neck injury, which caused his death. Among the crucial unanswered questions are how he was hurt, whether it was before or during the van ride, and whether the ride exacerbated an earlier injury. The police have acknowledged that he was not wearing a seatbelt, contrary to department policy, and that he should have received medical attention sooner.
    The video footage of his apprehension doesn't tell a clear picture of what all occurred. We do know that Freddie Gray:

    - was tased prior to being restrained on the ground.

    - had limited use of his legs (perhaps because they were bent cross-ways behind him as the two bicycle policemen held him down while back-up/reinforcements came on the scene).

    - was placed into additional leg restraints on the scene just prior to be being placed into the police van.

    - suffered sever injury to his neck (voice box) and spine (at the neck; reportedly 80% of his spine was severed at the neck) while in transit.

    Quote Originally Posted by annata View Post
    As to this topic: ..I wonder if they bounced him around in the back? Cuffed up behind and they like to
    rattle you around and bounce you off the walls since there isn't anyway to hold yourself down. It's possible to ram your head on the steel walls or even bounce upside down on the floor..which could snap your neck/spine. They are supposed to seat belt you in..but they don't always do it
    The confirmed non-use of seatbelts to secure the suspect in the back of the police van (paddy wagon) would support your suspicions. Still, we don't know precisely what happened in this case. But what IS clear is that the victim died at the hands of the Baltimore PD from injuries that were likely suffered during an unreported stop while enroute to the police station. The question everyone should be asking (other than why was this young man stopped in the first place) is "What really happened during that stop?"
    Last edited by Objective Voice; 04-30-15 at 04:13 PM.
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