• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

It all boils down to the fact that you think killing for fun is right and I think that is wrong on the most basic and fundamental of levels. Clearly we are never going to bridge that morality gap

No.. it boils down to the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. You have no understanding of hunting and continue to think its "all about killing".. when obviously.. objectively, its much more than that.

I laugh at your "killing is for fun" quote... You really don't get it. You have no understanding that what you do for fun also kills animals. Just because you don't pull a trigger does not absolve you of their death or give you the moral high ground..

I take responsibility for my role in the environment.. while you sir do not... and whats morally reprehensible is that you lambast the people like myself that hunt and take responsibility for improving habitat and the environment.
 
Elephants are not special in the science behind saving them from extinction and the importance of the animal having a legitimate value through controlled hunting.. rather than indiscriminate poaching. That's what the science shows...

Unfortunately... SD and others think that elephants are "special".. and are ignoring the facts, the realities, and the science.. .and that's why other African species have made comebacks.. while the African elephant and other "special" animals languish. Conservation methods and science including the judicial use of hunting have been proven for well over a hundred years... unfortunately.. facts and science are not in the anti hunter playbook.

I'm opposed to poaching, and where rhinos and elephants are concerned, that's their chief pressure.
 
No.. I want the particulars around the rhino pictured and the hunt. "Her first kill".. means nothing...

As when you posted a picture of her with a rhino and it was actually tranquilized.

As you can see from the blood on the muzzle of her teen kill it wasn't tranquilized . In 1900 there were estimated to be around half a million Rhinos of all species roaming Africa. There are now some 29,000 left yet you guys see nothing wrong with killing some more for fun. I don't buy this conservationist BS either. If she wants to save animals she can be a vet or a game warden rather than a grinning thrill seeker killing for 'sport' . Live animals attract vastly more money into these regions via tourism than dead ones so the economic argument doesn't wash either
 
And the fact that a child killing such animals for fun doesn't bother you at all speaks volumes.

It does speak volumes.. it shows that he is a responsible father... who understands the responsibility that we all share for the environment and the animals that live in it.
 
As you can see from the blood on the muzzle of her teen kill it wasn't tranquilized . In 1900 there were estimated to be around half a million Rhinos of all species roaming Africa. There are now some 29,000 left yet you guys see nothing wrong with killing some more for fun. I don't buy this conservationist BS either. If she wants to save animals she can be a vet or a game warden rather than a grinning thrill seeker killing for 'sport' . Live animals attract vastly more money into these regions via tourism than dead ones so the economic argument doesn't wash either



Nobody said it was ALL about conservation, but in fact hunters are usually conservationists as WELL as hunters.

You keep focusing myopically on one aspect at a time without seeing the whole.
 
There are people who do that. They're called "wildlife photographers" not hunters.

Given these photographers will use virtually identical skills to track down their targets do you concede that its the killing of these wild animals that is the primary motivation then ?
 
Flogger, do you eat meat?


Then you too are an animal killer. You just hire it out to someone else to do the killing.

Do you have a house? Drive a car or ride the bus? Work somewhere? Use electricity?

Then you're taking up animal habitat space and indirectly killing animals.
 
yeah I am sure places like Botswana or the RSA really care what anti hunting americans think

Do you want to be seen as credible? If so, then stop falsely accusing me. I'm most certainly not anti-hunter, though it makes it easier to advance your argument accusing me so. I've already told you I go to the deer woods every year, I also told you I kill a host of nuisance animals on my ranch, regularly. I also would point out that Texas is a model state when it comes to evidence that regulated hunting improves game numbers. The Texas Parks and Wildlife Dept. took a sluggish deer population and built the largest herd of any state, with good management.

But the African elephant is unique, and it's under heavy pressure from illegal poaching which must be fixed before hunting can be effective.
 
Given these photographers will use virtually identical skills to track down their targets do you concede that its the killing of these wild animals that is the primary motivation then ?


Again, you focus on the killing. The kill is the culmination of the hunt, it is not the whole.

But clearly you have no interest in seeing that.
 
Yes and the animals I ate were not killed for fun

.




Yes they were... unless you've never enjoyed a good steak dinner? ;)


It was just one step removed, allowing you to pretend you're not responsible.
 
Again, you focus on the killing. The kill is the culmination of the hunt, it is not the whole.

But clearly you have no interest in seeing that.

So do you concede its ultimately about the killing given you could do everything else involved in hunting and yet shoot with a camera as an alternative 'culmination' ?
 
So do you concede its ultimately about the killing given you could do everything else involved in hunting and yet shoot with a camera as an alternative 'culmination' ?


Nope. I concede nothing; I assert it is the whole experience and not any one part of the experience.
 
So they are out there killing elephants to boost their egos and now they are upset when an elephant killed one of them?
I hope other barbarians like that will think twice before trying to kill an innocent animal.
You hunt and kill for food it you have to, not because you think you want to have some fun.

What if the meat is used to feed poor tribes people?
 
And the fact that a child killing such animals for fun doesn't bother you at all speaks volumes.

Almost as much as you wishing humans were dead because they hunt.
 
As you can see from the blood on the muzzle of her teen kill it wasn't tranquilized . In 1900 there were estimated to be around half a million Rhinos of all species roaming Africa. There are now some 29,000 left yet you guys see nothing wrong with killing some more for fun. I don't buy this conservationist BS either. If she wants to save animals she can be a vet or a game warden rather than a grinning thrill seeker killing for 'sport' . Live animals attract vastly more money into these regions via tourism than dead ones so the economic argument doesn't wash either

Again.. the disconnect...

Again I would want to know the particulars around the hunt. For one.. part of conservation is the use of hunting as part of scientific management practices. It is a way to control genetics, control overpopulation and reduce human animal conflicts that can lead to drastic problems for the animals.

Two.. hunting brings in more dollars than non hunting tourism and it has a significantly less impact on the environment.

There is much evidence to suggest that hunting is less destructive than other nonconsumptive forms of ecotourism, such as photographic tourism.23 Hunters have less impact on the environment than photographic tourists as they require fewer local amenities and infrastructure, therefore reducing habitat degradation.24 The income generated from the hunting industry far exceeds that generated from other forms of ecotourism and is derived from fewer tourists, reducing their ecological impact while providing increased revenue for conservation initiatives.25

23. W. I. Morrill, “The Tourist Safari Hunter's Role in Conservation,” in Living With Wildlife—Wildlife Resource Management With Local Participation in Africa, ed. A. Kiss (Washington, DC: World Bank, 1993) Appendix II.
24. S. Gössling, “Tourism: A Sustainable Development Option,” Environmental Conservation, 27 (2000): 223–24.
25. D. Lewis and P. Alpert, “Trophy Hunting and Wildlife Conservation in Zambia,” Conservation Biology, 11 (1997): 59–68.

Sorry but facts are facts...
 
So, flogger... have you prepared an answer for why it is okay for others to kill animals FOR you, so that you can have fun and enjoy a nice steak dinner with your mates...


... but it is someone wrong when others kill animals themselves (even when the animals are eaten)?
 
Other, better informed persons who have actually done it, would call it the truth. :)

I'll try again .....

Why would this African hunt 'culmination' you speak of have to be a kill rather than a photo or perhaps even a boresighted laser shot proving your skill ?
 
I'm opposed to poaching, and where rhinos and elephants are concerned, that's their chief pressure.

Poaching is not legal hunting.. which is what the person in the OP was doing. AND the realities are that legal hunting helps curb poaching by giving a value to the animals..

Bans on hunting have been tried.. and don't work...

Hunting bans across Africa have been relatively ineffective in protecting wildlife, as they reduce the value of wild animals and therefore reduce local interest in protecting the animals.5 Since the establishment of the hunting ban in Kenya in 1977, the country has recorded a decline in number by 40 to 90 percent in most animal species.6 Alternatively, hunting tourism has been extremely successful as it attaches an economic value to the wildlife and therefore encourages the cooperation of local people in conservation efforts for economic gain.

Since the publication of “Our Common Future” in 1987, sustainable development has been at the forefront of environmental policy, attempting to combine economic growth and social development with conservation initiatives.7 At the International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation (CIC) workshop in Barcelona it was accepted that hunting tourism was an effective conservation tool with social, economic, and environmental benefits.8

5. R. D. Baldus. World Forum for Sustainable Hunting [Marrakesh, 22–25 April 2008]. Budakeszi: International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation.


6. S. S. Romanach, “Predator Conservation and Hunting in Kenya,” African Indaba, 5, no. 3 (2007): 22–23, http://www.africanindaba.co.za/Archive07/AfricanIndabaVol5-3.pdf (accessed 29 October 2009)


7. UN Documents, Our Common Future, Chapter 2:Towards Sustainable Development, Our Common Future, Chapter 2: Towards Sustainable Development - A/42/427 Annex, Chapter 2 - UN Documents: Gathering a body of global agreements (accessed 3 March 2010)


8. International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation, Sustainable Hunting Tourism Workshop [Barcelona, 9 October 2008]. Budakeszi: International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation.
 
If money talks they can give to conservationist charities. If they are really concerned with conservation then become game keepers or veterinarians working in situ. Its the killing they really want

Where do you think the money goes? People visit the game preserves, pay lots of money into it, that money goes into maintaining the preserves and the local conservation efforts and staff pay to watch over animals and protect them from poachers. A lot of this feeds back into the conservationist programs and areas set up.

So they hunt. So long as they aren't poaching, so long as its legal, that the game preserves are doing so along conservation and species population maintaining lines, what's the real problem? Other than you don't like it. I mean, that's really the only thing that in these many pages seems clear from your posts. You simply don't like it. Which is fine, and you don't have to do it. But why force your religion down other people's throats?
 
I'll try again .....

Why would this African hunt 'culmination' you speak of have to be a kill rather than a photo or perhaps even a boresighted laser shot proving your skill ?



You haven't tried it, don't knock it. :)
 
Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

Serves him right.
 
Poaching is not legal hunting.. which is what the person in the OP was doing. AND the realities are that legal hunting helps curb poaching by giving a value to the animals..

Bans on hunting have been tried.. and don't work...



5. R. D. Baldus. World Forum for Sustainable Hunting [Marrakesh, 22–25 April 2008]. Budakeszi: International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation.


6. S. S. Romanach, “Predator Conservation and Hunting in Kenya,” African Indaba, 5, no. 3 (2007): 22–23, http://www.africanindaba.co.za/Archive07/AfricanIndabaVol5-3.pdf (accessed 29 October 2009)


7. UN Documents, Our Common Future, Chapter 2:Towards Sustainable Development, Our Common Future, Chapter 2: Towards Sustainable Development - A/42/427 Annex, Chapter 2 - UN Documents: Gathering a body of global agreements (accessed 3 March 2010)


8. International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation, Sustainable Hunting Tourism Workshop [Barcelona, 9 October 2008]. Budakeszi: International Council for Game and Wildlife Conservation.

Yes, but folk keep bringing poaching into this, which isn't the topic of the thread, and I was pointing out, I'm already opposed to poaching, so it doesn't need to be pointed to as a problem. At any rate, the African elephant is under too much pressure from it to be hunting them "legally" right now.
 
Back
Top Bottom