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Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

You should educate yourself on African Elephants. They are not like the whitetail deer in your backyard. They are nearly as smart as we are. They experience every emotion we do. They are self aware. They are capable of empathy and have a notion of right and wrong. They also mourn their dead. I have no problem with hunting. I grew up hunting, most of my friends hunt, most of my family hunts. But in my opinion a creature like an elephant ought to enjoy every right to life that we enjoy. If you experience the same emotions, family ties, and mourn your dead just like we humans do, then you ought to have the same right to life that we humans enjoy and unless that elephant is a clear danger to people, it shouldn't be killed.

They are not "They are nearly as smart as we are" not even close. They are intelligent as far as animals go, but this does not afford them "human" status.
 
Not where hunting them is legal.

Where hunting them is legal they are an economic resource

Slavery was once legal and represented a economic resource too. That didn't make it right either :(
 
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Personally I go to the deer woods and hang at camp. I shoot lots of animals on my property that cause various harm to my ranch and livestock. But I don't travel to Kenya to shoot elephants. That's stupid.

Conservation and 'hunting' are their apologist excuses for it.

The love of killing is the real reason :(

Its why such people would actually want to travel thousands of miles to proactively kill such creatures is what I find so morally repugnant. Why not just shoot it with a camera ?
 
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Those articles are true for Africa as a whole, but false for individual countries. Some African countries (South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, and possibly Zimbabwe) have very sustainable herds that need to be culled.

Though most of the people doing the culling (wealthy game hunters) have pleasant personalities, their numbers undoubtably include a few wealthy jerks. That does not detract from the money that they spend locally, nor does it detract from the needed culling they provide. Likewise alot of eco tourism attract wealthy customers. Undoubtably, their numbers include a few wealthy jerks as well- just with a different socio poltical spin.
 
You might have a different opinion if you're a subsistence farmer making less then a dollar a day and the damn thing is uprooting your crops again.

The moralism of killing creatures "almost as smart as us" doesn't move me, dogs mourn their own too, and they're on the menu as well most places outside of Europe and North America

No country propers by destroying its ecosystem. Its every bit as much interest for the poor farmer to protect their elephants as it is for anyone else. Moreover, a dog is simply not comparable to an elephant in terms of intelligence or emotional capability.
 
They are not "They are nearly as smart as we are" not even close. They are intelligent as far as animals go, but this does not afford them "human" status.

They are a lot smarter than you realize then. For example if an elephant wants to disable an electric fence, they don't typically just break the fence, they find the fence charger and destroy it. I am not saying they should have the right to vote, but they sure as hell ought to enjoy the right to live their life unless they are a clear danger to humans.

The Science Is In: Elephants Are Even Smarter Than We Realized [Video] - Scientific American
Elephant cognition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
No country propers by destroying its ecosystem.

Really? I would dispute that statement.
Its every bit as much interest for the poor farmer to protect their elephants as it is for anyone else.
well clearly it's not otherwise they would be assisting the police and prosecuting poachers or not poaching them themselves
Moreover, a dog is simply not comparable to an elephant in terms of intelligence or emotional capability.

Purely a subjective standard only you understand.
 
No country propers by destroying its ecosystem. Its every bit as much interest for the poor farmer to protect their elephants as it is for anyone else. Moreover, a dog is simply not comparable to an elephant in terms of intelligence or emotional capability.

And the best way to do that is to give the animal an economic value. In countries where the number of elephants exceeds the local range's carrying capacity, that economic value means managed game hunts employing locals and spending cash on the local economy.

As for elephants are more intelligent than dogs, I dont buy it. We, of course, routinely euthanize dogs here every day.
 
That is your opinion, I think he hunts an endangered species (vulnerable with some sources saying the animal could be wiped out in the wild in 10 years or so) and that makes him not deserving of my empathy for loosing his life while hunting elephants. I do not wish death upon him and I am sorry if his death has been painful, but the only ones I feel sorry for is his family.

You may not agree with that but that is the great thing of humanity, we can agree to disagree. I would have wished he had not died but I do not feel sorry for him now that he has died during the hunting of an elephant.

It is my opinion. Animals are different from humans and I wouldn't put one above a human. But I'm a humanitarian, and believe all human life has value even people who do things I don't like.

Also, I think a lot of this big game hunts involve animals that were bred for the big game hunts. Not sure if this is one of those cases, but they do raise animals for this.
 
crime-psychobabble much? its not a crime just because a left wing american thinks it is

You can mock me all you want-I just laugh at Bambistas who are clueless about other countries and their natural resources

No, it is a crime, just like many things that once were legal and have finally been recognized for what they were. And killing an animal that is on the endangered list just for sport is a crime. There's nothing political about it.
 
You're being a bit righteous IMO. I'm not cheering his death but I don't lament it either. It's called non-attachment. You engage in a high risk sport and you could die. I don't care to partake in the veneration of some human who I don't even know and have zero loyalty toward.

It just also so happens that I find trophy elephant hunting to be outdated and immoral, regardless if it's legal or not. The ivory trade is fueled by selfish morons who are part of the era that believes in the prestige of ivory ownership. Zero respect for that, and one less hunter on planet earth is one more protection for the elephants who are by most measure quite sentient and did not ask to be attacked. If a rape victim managed to kill their attacker I wouldn't shed a tear over that either.

So yeah, nitpick over how immoral we all are for not getting down on our knees and balling because some old fogey hunter finally got his karmic reward for all the pain he has caused wild animals. I would not mourn whalers, Alaskan fishermen, or anyone else either. People's choices lead to consequences and that's not my problem.

But I guess whatever makes you feel like the homo superior. :shrug:

It's OK to not have empathy for your fellow man, well maybe not "OK" per say, but it happens quite a lot. Some put animals above humans, but as a humanitarian I place value in all human life, even this guy. This had nothing to do with the ivory trade, so that's just deflection towards an appeal to emotion; though most of your argument here is just that. But yes, we get it. This guy got what he deserved, go elephant.
 
umm,the science has been in for decades and decades...it works and there's no getting around that.

listen, coming to a science fight armed with tears and emotions doesn't mean it's an actual debate...it's not.
sometimes it sucks when our emotions get in the way of doing the right thing, but we're humans, and that's how we roll sometimes...

again, focus on the folks who do damage... poachers.

Poachers are a whole other subject, not the focus of the op which is about a hunter killed by a smart elephant because it didn't want to die! These elephants are endangered, which doesn't mean they should have the extra pressure of being hunted now.
 
Really? I would dispute that statement. well clearly it's not otherwise they would be assisting the police and prosecuting poachers or not poaching them themselves

Purely a subjective standard only you understand.

People commonly don't do what is in their own interest or their country's interest, that same farmer might mutilate his daughters genitals or try to maintain more cows than he can afford simply out of status. However, if he is just making a dollar a day it will be pretty cheap to compensate him for his loss.

Look I realize that there are conflicts between elephants and humans in Africa and obviously the elephant is going to be on the losing end of most of the conflicts. However, I don't think the knee jerk reaction should be its just another animal just kill it as though it were deer in your backyard eating your roses.
 
Those articles are true for Africa as a whole, but false for individual countries. Some African countries (South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, and possibly Zimbabwe) have very sustainable herds that need to be culled.

Though most of the people doing the culling (wealthy game hunters) have pleasant personalities, their numbers undoubtably include a few wealthy jerks. That does not detract from the money that they spend locally, nor does it detract from the needed culling they provide. Likewise alot of eco tourism attract wealthy customers. Undoubtably, their numbers include a few wealthy jerks as well- just with a different socio poltical spin.

According to the Elephant Database, which receives reports from the International Union for Conservation of Natural African Elephant Specialist Group, a network of governments and nonprofits, there were 47,366 elephants in Zimbabwe in 2012, down from 84,416 in 2007. Rodrigues said that the Great Elephant Census, a project led by Paul G. Allen, the American philanthropist, to calculate the number of elephants in the southern African region by 2016, had counted about 20,000 elephants so far in the past year.

For Elephants in Zimbabwe, a Deeply Troubling Present and Future | passblue

This does not sound like culling but this sounds like massacring the elephants, in 7 years the number seems to have gone down by 37,000, the elephants in that region cannot survive another 7 years like

The herald of New Zealand has a piece on this hunt in Zimbabwe Jumbo population down 40pc | The Herald

Where it is written:

The national survey of Elephants in Zimbabwe: preliminary 2014 results show that elephant numbers have decreased by about 75% in the combined Matusadona and Chizarira areas.
 
For most the pure exhilaration of being out and about in an area controlled completely by the native animal population is something that will never be experienced. I'm not a big game hunting advocate. However, being out and about in Africa is something unforgettable. It's definitely not for most people. Too bad this fellow died, but he knew the risks. That's why he was there.
 
For Elephants in Zimbabwe, a Deeply Troubling Present and Future | passblue

This does not sound like culling but this sounds like massacring the elephants, in 7 years the number seems to have gone down by 37,000, the elephants in that region cannot survive another 7 years like

The herald of New Zealand has a piece on this hunt in Zimbabwe Jumbo population down 40pc | The Herald

Where it is written:

In all fairness though there are some countries where they are overpopulated for the reserves available to them, namely South Africa.
 
They are a lot smarter than you realize then. For example if an elephant wants to disable an electric fence, they don't typically just break the fence, they find the fence charger and destroy it. I am not saying they should have the right to vote, but they sure as hell ought to enjoy the right to live their life unless they are a clear danger to humans.

The Science Is In: Elephants Are Even Smarter Than We Realized [Video] - Scientific American
Elephant cognition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again this has nothing to do with the thinning of herds for the welfare of the animals and man.

In the end they are still nowhere even close to human intelligence. So no, they are no smarter than I realize...

"This is the first experimental evidence for learned cooperative behavior in this socially sophisticated species," Reiss noted. Clayton said the findings support the theory "that cognitive abilities evolved independently in animals that are as very distantly related from us as elephants and crows." - Elephants Outwit Humans During Intelligence Test : Discovery News
 
An Elephant never forgets....

Just not worth that kind of hassle for me, tend to go after animals who's family wont have a vendetta against me forever.
 
For most the pure exhilaration of being out and about in an area controlled completely by the native animal population is something that will never be experienced. I'm not a big game hunting advocate. However, being out and about in Africa is something unforgettable. It's definitely not for most people. Too bad this fellow died, but he knew the risks. That's why he was there.

He wasn't in a primeval wilderness, he was on a game reserve. I would love to go to Africa but lets call a spade a spade here. This guy was on what is little more than a canned hunt. If you want the true primeval wilderness experience, strap a pack on and head out to one of our large federal wilderness areas out west or up in Canada. Hell I have stood on glaciers with my son where we were days walk from the nearest road, and no locals drove us up there in a land rover, set up all our camps for us, and carted our gear around. If something happened or if the rare event we had an issue with a grizzly, the only way of getting help would be with a sat phone. That is a true primeval experience. Going on some canned hunt / luxury safari in Africa isn't. Its what wealthy westerners do when they want to pretend they are a badass.
 
He wasn't in a primeval wilderness, he was on a game reserve. I would love to go to Africa but lets call a spade a spade here. This guy was on what is little more than a canned hunt. If you want the true primeval wilderness experience, strap a pack on and head out to one of our large federal wilderness areas out west or up in Canada. Hell I have stood on glaciers with my son where we were days walk from the nearest road, and no locals drove us up there in a land rover, set up all our camps for us, and carted our gear around. If something happened or if the rare event we had an issue with a grizzly, the only way of getting help would be with a sat phone. That is a true primeval experience. Going on some canned hunt / luxury safari in Africa isn't. Its what wealthy westerners do when they want to pretend they are a badass.

The risks remain, especially in Africa, whether it's on a game reserve or not. There are large swaths of Africa designated as game reserves for purposes of protecting the wildlife. Of course, there are other areas that are as you describe. I've been in wilderness all over the place, including Africa - not hunting. I also hunt from time to time.
 
Again this has nothing to do with the thinning of herds for the welfare of the animals and man.

In the end they are still nowhere even close to human intelligence. So no, they are no smarter than I realize...

"This is the first experimental evidence for learned cooperative behavior in this socially sophisticated species," Reiss noted. Clayton said the findings support the theory "that cognitive abilities evolved independently in animals that are as very distantly related from us as elephants and crows." - Elephants Outwit Humans During Intelligence Test : Discovery News

The hunt was in a remote area of Zimbabwe, a country where elephant populations are collapsing. The Number of Elephants in Parts of Zimbabwe Is Plunging - Bloomberg Business
 
The risks remain, especially in Africa, whether it's on a game reserve or not. There are large swaths of Africa designated as game reserves for purposes of protecting the wildlife. Of course, there are other areas that are as you describe. I've been in wilderness all over the place, including Africa - not hunting. I also hunt from time to time.

I grew up hunting, everyone in my family hunts. I fish all the time but seldom hunt anymore. I agree there are areas in Africa that are true wilderness, but this guide was on a luxury game reserve where you spend nearly 2 grand a day just to stay there.
 
The threat is from "poachers" not legal hunts. Huge difference. The first line in your article...

Elephants are under threat from poachers in Zimbabwe

So you are now trying to compare legal sanctioned hunts to poaching?

No, I am saying that the argument you are using that these legal canned hunts are needed to thin the herd is not a valid argument for where this guide was working at in Zimbabwe.
 
When will this ridiculous pass time be banned?

Never, in the near future, but in the far future - yes - and lets hope that man develops enough to cause a "ban" to be un-necessary.
"pass time" = pastime ? right ?
 
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