Page 24 of 51 FirstFirst ... 14222324252634 ... LastLast
Results 231 to 240 of 504

Thread: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

  1. #231
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    42,371

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    This is nothing to do with the love of hunting or conservation and everything to do with a love of killing. Having seen elephants and giraffes in the wild in Kenya there is no hunting involved in finding them because they are large easy to find and dont tend to run away


    A truly clueless statement.


    Hunting isn't about the killing, at least not for most. The killing is almost incidental.

    It's about a lot of things.... probably as many different things as there are hunters. For many, there is a love of nature (and nature itself is often harsh and predatory, in many areas if hunters didn't thin herds mass starvation would result), getting in touch with your roots as your distant ancestors hunted for game, the pitting of man's wits vs animal's senses and cunning, the long slow stalk or the long silent time spent observing, the challenge of making the shot... many things.

    For big game hunters, the risk is a factor as well. A positive factor.

    The kill itself is just the culmination of the hunt, but it is far from being the ultimate reason for hunting. The whole experience is the reason... especially since (as another poster pointed out) most hunts don't even end with a kill.


    One of the most avid hunters I've ever known personally is also an avid wildlife photographer, spending a great deal of time on that hobby outside of hunting season.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  2. #232
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    @
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    14,942

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    No you use the term 'conservation' to whitewash what you are really doing and therefore pass it off as morally legitimate thats all.

    We are not all so easily fooled
    No sir.. you are easily fooled. by those that are anti hunters.. and their rhetoric.

    I presented cold hard facts. The success rate on hunting elk in my region is about 14%, Deer hunting is 18-20% on average. If it was "all about killing"... then why would we participate in hunting that has such an abysmal success rate.

    Here.. let me really educate you. Here is a research study done on bear hunting with hounds... probably the most maligned hunting by you anti-hunters.

    On average, bears were chased in 65% of hunts; 24%
    of bears chased were treed, and a bear was harvested in
    5% of all hunts
    (Tables 3, 5).

    http://www.bearbiology.com/fileadmin/tpl/Downloads/URSUS/Vol_13/Higgins_Inman_Vaughan_13.pdf


    5% of all hunts... hardly a success rate that indicates that hunting is all about killing.

    Some more facts:

    Reason No. 1 why Hunting Is Conservation: In 1907, only 41,000 elk remained in North America. Thanks to the money and hard work invested by hunters to restore and conserve habitat, today there are more than 1 million.
    Reason No. 2 why Hunting Is Conservation: In 1900, only 500,000 whitetails remained. Thanks to conservation work spearheaded by hunters, today there are more than 32 million.

    Reason No. 3 why Hunting Is Conservation: In 1900, only 100,000 wild turkeys remained. Thanks to hunters, today there are over 7 million.

    Reason No. 4 why Hunting Is Conservation: In 1901, few ducks remained. Thanks to hunters’ efforts to restore and conserve wetlands, today there are more than 44 million.

    Reason No. 5 why Hunting Is Conservation: In 1950, only 12,000 pronghorn remained. Thanks to hunters, today there are more than 1.1 million.

    Reason No. 6 why Hunting Is Conservation: Habitat, research and wildlife law enforcement work, all paid for by hunters, help countless non-hunted species.

    Reason No. 7 why Hunting Is Conservation: Through state licenses and fees, hunters pay $796 million a year for conservation programs.*

    Reason No. 8 why Hunting Is Conservation: Through donations to groups like RMEF, hunters add $440 million a year to conservation efforts.*

    Reason No. 9why Hunting Is Conservation: In 1937, hunters actually requested an 11% tax on guns, ammo, bows and arrows to help fund conservation. That tax, so far, raised more than $7.2 billion for wildlife conservation.*

    Reason No. 10 why Hunting Is Conservation: An 11% tax on guns, ammo, bows and arrows generates $371 million a year for conservation.*

    Reason No. 11 why Hunting Is Conservation: All together, hunters pay more than $1.6 billion a year for conservation programs. No one gives more!*

    Reason No. 12 why Hunting Is Conservation: Three out of four Americans approve of hunting, partly because hunters are America’s greatest positive force for conservation.

  3. #233
    Sage
    flogger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Wokingham, England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 05:01 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,011

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Hunting isn't about the killing, at least not for most. The killing is almost incidental.

    It's about a lot of things.... probably as many different things as there are hunters. For many, there is a love of nature (and nature itself is often harsh and predatory, in many areas if hunters didn't thin herds mass starvation would result), getting in touch with your roots as your distant ancestors hunted for game, the pitting of man's wits vs animal's senses and cunning, the long slow stalk or the long silent time spent observing, the challenge of making the shot... many things.

    For big game hunters, the risk is a factor as well. A positive factor.

    The kill itself is just the culmination of the hunt, but it is far from being the ultimate reason for hunting. The whole experience is the reason... especially since (as another poster pointed out) most hunts don't even end with a kill.

    One of the most avid hunters I've ever known personally is also an avid wildlife photographer, spending a great deal of time on that hobby outside of hunting season.
    Were all that really so then why not shoot the animal with a camera after using your consummate hunting skills to track it down ? Why would you then want to kill it ? Mother nature was already managing the conservation of most of these animal populations long before man came on the scene. I see the hunting for conservation argument as a load of morally ambiguous whitewash frankly

  4. #234
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    15,975

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by jaeger19 View Post
    First... most animals have some time of feeling for others of their family or kind. Deer will hang around and try to get up dead calves.. and will stand over and defend them against predators. Prairie dogs will come over and nose up dead in their family group. So on and so forth. If you watch animals as long as I have as a hunter, you will see that animals have all sorts of behaviors that humans can call "emotion".. whether its emotion or not? that's humans putting their own twist on things. Cows will defend a dead calf.. and no leave the calfs sides. I have seen cows develop what appears to be friendships with other cows.. they will nurse their friends calves and watch over them while their friends eat.

    Do you eat beef?
    I grew up hunting so yes I know that most animals have a biological / instinctual bond to other members of their herd and to their offspring. However, elephants are on an entirely different level. They mourn their dead like we mourn our dead. They are capable of empathising with others, even other species. They experience every single emotion we experience and their intelligence level may well exceed every other member of the animal kingdom with the exception of us. When elephants want to disable an electric fence they have been known to target the fence charger itself. A cow doesn't do that.

    I can safely say that any animal that I ever took while hunting or any fish I have ever caught did not have other animals in its group mourning for it the rest of their lives. The same cannot be said for an elephant. Would you hunt an orangatan? How about a bonobo?
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  5. #235
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    42,371

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Were all that really so then why not shoot the animal with a camera after using your consummate hunting skills to track it down ? Why would you then want to kill it ? Mother nature was already managing the conservation of most of these animal populations long before man came on the scene. I see the hunting for conservation argument as a load of morally ambiguous whitewash frankly

    Most of us eat what we kill.

    The conservation argument is legitimate. Indeed there are some states where there is concern that not enough deer are being hunted to prevent overpopulation and thus starvation (a very nasty way to go, I'd rather be shot any time) may occur.

    The natural predators that used to take care of that balance no longer exist in sufficient numbers anymore, because they proved too troublesome to coexist readily with human populations and human agriculture.



    Honestly do you know nothing about this topic? That's basic stuff.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  6. #236
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    @
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    14,942

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    You are making a blanket statement. There are countries like South Africa where herds do need to be culled at times because they overpopulate for habitat available to them. Then there are countries like Zimbabwe where there is no such need for culling as the herds are collapsing due to poaching and mismanagement. You cannot compare the situation in a country like South Africa and in one of the most corrupt and inept countries on earth, Zimbabwe.
    Actually you can. One of the ways to combat the poaching is to give the animals legitimate value to the local populace. Poaching thrives in part because there is no interest in the local population in "preserving" something that's seen as a nuisance at best.. and a threat to their livelihood at worst.

  7. #237
    Sage
    flogger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Wokingham, England
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 05:01 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    13,011

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Most of us eat what we kill.
    I seriously doubt the trophy hunter killed in the OP was just about to do that

    The conservation argument is legitimate. Indeed there are some states where there is concern that not enough deer are being hunted to prevent overpopulation and thus starvation (a very nasty way to go, I'd rather be shot any time) may occur.

    The natural predators that used to take care of that balance no longer exist in sufficient numbers anymore, because they proved too troublesome to coexist readily with human populations and human agriculture.


    Honestly do you know nothing about this topic? That's basic stuff.
    Let nature sort it out then as it always does. Defining hunting as some kind of conservational altruism is way too much of a reach to be credible frankly

  8. #238
    Pragmatist
    SouthernDemocrat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    KC
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 09:44 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    15,975

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Most of us eat what we kill.

    The conservation argument is legitimate. Indeed there are some states where there is concern that not enough deer are being hunted to prevent overpopulation and thus starvation (a very nasty way to go, I'd rather be shot any time) may occur.

    The natural predators that used to take care of that balance no longer exist in sufficient numbers anymore, because they proved too troublesome to coexist readily with human populations and human agriculture.



    Honestly do you know nothing about this topic? That's basic stuff.
    I can't imagine how overpopulated deer would be in much of the East and Midwest if we were not hunting them. We had a 2000 acre heavilly wooded county park in the Kansas City area here that had the highest population density of deer in the country in it. There were well over 200 per square mile in the park. The over population of deer was devistating to the parks over all ecosystem due to their eating all the undergrowth and the insane amount of ticks. The only thing that could be done was bring in sharp shooters to routinely thin the parks herd down.

    That said, in Zimbabwe where this happened, the elephant population has been experiencing a rapid decline due to missmanagement and poaching, so there is no reason to be thinning the herd there. This was just some canned hunt on a wildlife reserve gone wrong.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

  9. #239
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Last Seen
    @
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    14,942

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I grew up hunting so yes I know that most animals have a biological / instinctual bond to other members of their herd and to their offspring. However, elephants are on an entirely different level. They mourn their dead like we mourn our dead. They are capable of empathising with others, even other species. They experience every single emotion we experience and their intelligence level may well exceed every other member of the animal kingdom with the exception of us. When elephants want to disable an electric fence they have been known to target the fence charger itself. A cow doesn't do that.

    I can safely say that any animal that I ever took while hunting or any fish I have ever caught did not have other animals in its group mourning for it the rest of their lives. The same cannot be said for an elephant. Would you hunt an orangatan? How about a bonobo?
    Actually a cow will disable a fence charger. A cow will learn to lean against a charged fence, and take the electric pulse, until it can push the fence into something (like a bush or post) that will ground out the wire.. while the other cows jump the grounded out fence.

    No offense but you have no idea of what emotions or whether they are emotions that elephants experience.

    Would I hunt an orangutan or a bonobo? Interesting question. I don't eat orangutan or bonobo..and would be hesitant to do so for health reasons... so I would be hesitant to hunt one just to hunt one. However, if it was a nuisance animal that needed to be controlled... and the method of hunting was well hunting that required skill? Sure, I would hunt one. Particularly if the meat and hide would be used by the local people.

  10. #240
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:23 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    42,371

    Re: Game Hunter Trampled To Death By Elephant

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I seriously doubt the trophy hunter killed in the OP was just about to do that



    Let nature sort it out then as it always does. Defining hunting as some kind of conservational altruism is way too much of a reach to be credible frankly

    You're not listening. I just explained to you why nature's pre-civilization method of population control (predation) no longer functions. You'd prefer the game animals starve? You ARE aware that starvation is a slow and excruciating death right? Starvation can take weeks or months, whereas death by bullet or arrow is usually over in minutes.

    If you don't wish to participate, don't. No one is telling you to.

    But frankly we'd appreciate it if you refrained from telling us why we do what we do, as if you were some kind of mind-reader, when you clearly are not very well informed on this subject.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

Page 24 of 51 FirstFirst ... 14222324252634 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •