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Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... And Th

Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Forgive that was my fault, clearly.

I was thinking of direct aplication of the second amendment: state constitutionS and law must comply with the Federal constitution, and so when the state issues a business license to an entity imposing a gun ban, the state is violating the second amendment.

If you want a business which can discriminate against gays then you have to go out of your way and organize as a religious non-profit. Likewise if you want to ban blacks or jews or armed citizens or women or whatever then you likewise need to go out of your way to organize as some kind of nonprofit.

Tyranny, indeed
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

The place is called Dieseltec? Is this going to effect anyone?
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Non sequitur

No answer eh? Or you just hadnt thought of it before and had no response? lol
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

No answer eh? Or you just hadnt thought of it before and had no response? lol
Your non sequitur allowed you to avoid the reality of what I said. That's kind of the purpose of posting a non sequitur.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

It is so sad that people's understanding of religion has become so distorted that he does not realize that what he is doing is immoral.
Because you are the final authority on all things religious: Why do the islamo dogs kill innocent people and rape 9 year old girls? About a billion men believe that if they get killed, killing you in the name of Allah they will ascend to paradise and get 72 virgins to abuse as they wish; why is that??
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Your non sequitur allowed you to avoid the reality of what I said. That's kind of the purpose of posting a non sequitur.

Nah, you are ignoring the relevance because you cant support your position. Evidence of that is that you continue talking about 'me and my posts' instead of doing so.

Just as I did here. Next time, if you repost and continue avoiding, I'll just requote the passages and demonstrate that avoidance in the interests of the discussion to help you with a reference.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

If you want a business which can discriminate against gays then you have to go out of your way and organize as a religious non-profit. Likewise if you want to ban blacks or jews or armed citizens or women or whatever then you likewise need to go out of your way to organize as some kind of nonprofit.

I doubt that. The wedding chapel in Coeur d'Alene continually operated as a for-profit business, and yet it was able to refuse to perform same-sex weddings. When the city passed an ordinance that apparently required it to perform them, it sued in federal court, and the city quickly found it was exempt from the ordinance. I have not seen the arguments the owners of the chapel made in their suit, but I think the strongest one would have been based on the freedom of speech.

The more expressive the speech--i.e. the further it involves the business owner in expressing a view he rejects, even if only symbolically--the more likely a state public accommodations law will infringe his right not to engage in that speech. A limousine service or a caterer whose owners oppose same-sex marriage may not be able to refuse to serve guests invited to a same-sex wedding; but an artist who shares their view probably could refuse to paint a portrait celebrating the ceremony.

Government may not compel a person to endorse or propound views he does not agree with. See West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette (holding a state law which compelled students to pledge allegiance to the flag against their belief unconstitutionally infringed their freedom of speech); Wooley v. Maynard (holding a state law which compelled a person to display the state motto on his license plate, although its message violated his beliefs, unconstitutionally infringed his freedom of speech); Hurley v. Irish-American GLIB (holding a state law which defined a St. Patrick's Day parade as a public accommodation and compelled the organizers to let a homosexual advocacy group participate unconstitutionally infringed their freedom of speech).

Justice Powell's concurring opinion in Pruneyard Shopping Center strongly suggests that in some circumstances at least, government may not be able to compel even businesses serving the public to propound views they do not agree with:


A system which secures the right to proselytize religious, political, and ideological causes must also guarantee the concomitant right to decline to foster such concepts. This principle on its face protects a person who refuses to allow use of his property as a marketplace for the ideas of others. And I can find no reason to exclude the owner whose property is not limited to his personal use. A person who has merely invited the public onto his property for commercial purposes cannot fairly be said to have relinquished his right to decline to be an instrument for fostering public adherence to an ideological point of view he finds unacceptable.
.........................
A minority-owned business confronted with leaflet distributors from the American Nazi Party or the Ku Klux Klan, a church-operated enterprise asked to host demonstrations in favor of abortion, or a union compelled to supply a forum to right-to-work advocates could be placed in an intolerable position if state law requires it to make its private property available to anyone who wishes to speak.
.........................
The pressure to respond is particularly apparent when the owner has taken a position opposed to the view being expressed on his property . . . [but] the right to control one's own speech may be burdened impermissibly even when listeners will not assume that the messages expressed on private property are those of the owner . . . . (emphasis added)
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Nah, you are ignoring the relevance because you cant support your position. Evidence of that is that you continue talking about 'me and my posts' instead of doing so.

Just as I did here. Next time, if you repost and continue avoiding, I'll just requote the passages and demonstrate that avoidance in the interests of the discussion to help you with a reference.
How ironic
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

It is so sad that people's understanding of religion has become so distorted that he does not realize that what he is doing is immoral.

If the guy read the bible and considered Jesus as a role model, he would see a prophet who showed compassion and love to the most socially ostracized people in his time. If Jesus touched lepers and broke bread with prostitutes and sinners, then I don't believe Jesus would refuse to sell something from his carpentry shop to a homosexual.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Most Christians consider themselves sinners, and most of them would feel it wrong or unacceptable if somebody from their past made a public display of their follies and sins, and refused to do business with them in front of their communities. The bible clearly says to not judge, and this guy is judging the weight of people's sin. The bible cautions against casting stones.

And his position is hypocritical and wrong. There is absolutely no way he turns away others who are sinners (since everyone is a sinner). This is exactly why many of us support antidiscrimination laws that include sexuality.

Heck, are those people who supported the baker and the pizzeria because "they didn't say they would refuse to serve gays at all" really going to support this guy? Or is it going to become "well it is legal"?
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

I plan on publically smearing and discriminating against Brian Klawiter, because I find him lacking in moral character.

Whatever melts your butter.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

If the guy read the bible and considered Jesus as a role model, he would see a prophet who showed compassion and love to the most socially ostracized people in his time. If Jesus touched lepers and broke bread with prostitutes and sinners, then I don't believe Jesus would refuse to sell something from his carpentry shop to a homosexual.
But would He sell something from His carpentry shop specifically to be used in a same sex marriage. I say, No, He wouldn't
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

But would He sell something from His carpentry shop specifically to be used in a same sex marriage. I say, No, He wouldn't

The dude hung around and loved everyone but the self righteous. I think he would be cool with selling his goods to be used in a same-sex wedding. He was cool with the Centurian and his Pais afterall.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

The dude hung around and loved everyone but the self righteous. I think he would be cool with selling his goods to be used in a same-sex wedding. He was cool with the Centurian and his Pais afterall.

Love ≠ Approval
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Love ≠ Approval

Yeah. Love is better than approval. It means you accept people for who they are without trying to force them to change and you appreciate their differences even if you do not agree. You might learn a thing or two from Jesus.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Yeah. Love is better than approval. It means you accept people for who they are without trying to force them to change and you appreciate their differences even if you do not agree. You might learn a thing or two from Jesus.

Let's see what Jesus actually said, in the Sermon on the mount for instance (my liberal friends love the Sermon on the Mount, just not all of it)

Matthew 5: 27-30

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you [w]stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [x]to lose one of the parts of your body, [y]than for your whole body to be thrown into [z]hell. 30 If your right hand makes you [aa]stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you [ab]to lose one of the parts of your body, [ac]than for your whole body to go into [ad]hell.

Ouch!! Sounds like He is talking about changing behavior.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Let's see what Jesus actually said, in the Sermon on the mount for instance (my liberal friends love the Sermon on the Mount, just not all of it)

Matthew 5: 27-30

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you [w]stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [x]to lose one of the parts of your body, [y]than for your whole body to be thrown into [z]hell. 30 If your right hand makes you [aa]stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you [ab]to lose one of the parts of your body, [ac]than for your whole body to go into [ad]hell.

Ouch!! Sounds like He is talking about changing behavior.

Yeah, adultery is pretty bad. And yet I suspect he even loved adulterers. While we are on the topic can you post where he specifically mentioned homosexuality?
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Let's see what Jesus actually said, in the Sermon on the mount for instance (my liberal friends love the Sermon on the Mount, just not all of it)

Matthew 5: 27-30

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you [w]stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [x]to lose one of the parts of your body, [y]than for your whole body to be thrown into [z]hell. 30 If your right hand makes you [aa]stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you [ab]to lose one of the parts of your body, [ac]than for your whole body to go into [ad]hell.

Ouch!! Sounds like He is talking about changing behavior.

Yeah, adultery is pretty bad. And yet I suspect he even loved adulterers. While we are on the topic can you post where he specifically mentioned homosexuality?
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Yeah, adultery is pretty bad. And yet I suspect he even loved adulterers. While we are on the topic can you post where he specifically mentioned homosexuality?
Being the author of the entire Bible, if it's in The Bible He mentioned it.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Yeah and blacks and women should have just 'taken it' too instead of speaking out and fighting for their rights.

Sorry some people's fight for equality is inconveniencing or annoying you.

So you stepped into a conversation with someone else, and were wrong there was no confusion):
You're confusing what was codified in the law with the free exercise of religion

People supported segregation and racism towards blacks by misusing and intentionally (IMO) scriptures, even into the 1960's. And the Bible has lots of passages that have been used to keep women submissive to men and as property. That had been used to discriminate against women for centuries.

Non sequitur
No response

Your non sequitur allowed you to avoid the reality of what I said. That's kind of the purpose of posting a non sequitur.
No response

How ironic

No response

LOLOL

So, now that we have all that out of the way, how would you like to support your position that discrimination against gays based on religious beliefs is different than that same religiously-based discrimination against blacks or women in the past?
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

So you stepped into a conversation with someone else, and were wrong there was no confusion):




No response

No response



No response

LOLOL

So, now that we have all that out of the way, how would you like to support your position that discrimination against gays based on religious beliefs is different than that same religiously-based discrimination against blacks or women in the past?


You quoted it. Discrimination against blacks and women (in some instances) was codified in the law.
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

Yeah. Love is better than approval. It means you accept people for who they are without trying to force them to change and you appreciate their differences even if you do not agree. You might learn a thing or two from Jesus.

..... Now that's Ironic. Jesus loves us so much that he is willing to die in order to try to change us, and insists that we do, in fact, desperately need to change.

Jesus loved us while we were yet sinners - and then commanded that we go and sin no more.

Love is indeed better than approval, but you have mixed up the definitions of each.

Yeah, adultery is pretty bad. And yet I suspect he even loved adulterers.

Loved them so much, in fact, that He would refuse to simply accept their self-destructive behavior, as opposed to insisting that it change. He would not "appreciate the differences" he had with someone who thought adultery was acceptable.

While we are on the topic can you post where he specifically mentioned homosexuality?

Jesus defined marriage as a union between a man and a woman that shouldn't be broken (Matthew 19:4-9) and then prescribed how those unable to live out that standard should live (Matthew 19:10-12). The sinfulness of homosexual conduct wasn't a question in any crowd he addressed, and so there is no reason for him to have pulled it out specifically (he also, for example, never specifically mentioned rape). When the apostles were writing to Greek, Latin, or other non-Hebrew audiences, they did have to contend with a culture in which homosexual conduct was accepted, which is why they did have to discuss it specifically.
 
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Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

You quoted it. Discrimination against blacks and women (in some instances) was codified in the law.

The comment was regarding how obnoxious and inconvenient (my paraphrasing) gays are and the comment referred to how people reacted to blacks and women fighting for their civil rights BEFORE their equal rights were recognized by law.

There ya go, do you understand now?
 
Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

The comment was regarding how obnoxious and inconvenient (my paraphrasing) gays are and the comment referred to how people reacted to blacks and women fighting for their civil rights BEFORE their equal rights were recognized by law.

There ya go, do you understand now?

Doesn't change the fact that there's no comparison because discrimination against blacks was codified in the law
 
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