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Thread: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... And Th

  1. #181
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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    Your non sequitur allowed you to avoid the reality of what I said. That's kind of the purpose of posting a non sequitur.
    Nah, you are ignoring the relevance because you cant support your position. Evidence of that is that you continue talking about 'me and my posts' instead of doing so.

    Just as I did here. Next time, if you repost and continue avoiding, I'll just requote the passages and demonstrate that avoidance in the interests of the discussion to help you with a reference.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    If you want a business which can discriminate against gays then you have to go out of your way and organize as a religious non-profit. Likewise if you want to ban blacks or jews or armed citizens or women or whatever then you likewise need to go out of your way to organize as some kind of nonprofit.
    I doubt that. The wedding chapel in Coeur d'Alene continually operated as a for-profit business, and yet it was able to refuse to perform same-sex weddings. When the city passed an ordinance that apparently required it to perform them, it sued in federal court, and the city quickly found it was exempt from the ordinance. I have not seen the arguments the owners of the chapel made in their suit, but I think the strongest one would have been based on the freedom of speech.

    The more expressive the speech--i.e. the further it involves the business owner in expressing a view he rejects, even if only symbolically--the more likely a state public accommodations law will infringe his right not to engage in that speech. A limousine service or a caterer whose owners oppose same-sex marriage may not be able to refuse to serve guests invited to a same-sex wedding; but an artist who shares their view probably could refuse to paint a portrait celebrating the ceremony.

    Government may not compel a person to endorse or propound views he does not agree with. See West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette (holding a state law which compelled students to pledge allegiance to the flag against their belief unconstitutionally infringed their freedom of speech); Wooley v. Maynard (holding a state law which compelled a person to display the state motto on his license plate, although its message violated his beliefs, unconstitutionally infringed his freedom of speech); Hurley v. Irish-American GLIB (holding a state law which defined a St. Patrick's Day parade as a public accommodation and compelled the organizers to let a homosexual advocacy group participate unconstitutionally infringed their freedom of speech).

    Justice Powell's concurring opinion in Pruneyard Shopping Center strongly suggests that in some circumstances at least, government may not be able to compel even businesses serving the public to propound views they do not agree with:


    A system which secures the right to proselytize religious, political, and ideological causes must also guarantee the concomitant right to decline to foster such concepts. This principle on its face protects a person who refuses to allow use of his property as a marketplace for the ideas of others. And I can find no reason to exclude the owner whose property is not limited to his personal use. A person who has merely invited the public onto his property for commercial purposes cannot fairly be said to have relinquished his right to decline to be an instrument for fostering public adherence to an ideological point of view he finds unacceptable.
    .........................
    A minority-owned business confronted with leaflet distributors from the American Nazi Party or the Ku Klux Klan, a church-operated enterprise asked to host demonstrations in favor of abortion, or a union compelled to supply a forum to right-to-work advocates could be placed in an intolerable position if state law requires it to make its private property available to anyone who wishes to speak.
    .........................
    The pressure to respond is particularly apparent when the owner has taken a position opposed to the view being expressed on his property . . . [but] the right to control one's own speech may be burdened impermissibly even when listeners will not assume that the messages expressed on private property are those of the owner . . . . (emphasis added)

  3. #183
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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Nah, you are ignoring the relevance because you cant support your position. Evidence of that is that you continue talking about 'me and my posts' instead of doing so.

    Just as I did here. Next time, if you repost and continue avoiding, I'll just requote the passages and demonstrate that avoidance in the interests of the discussion to help you with a reference.
    How ironic

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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    I plan on publically smearing and discriminating against Brian Klawiter, because I find him lacking in moral character.

    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... And That's Legal


    Oh boy, more contraversy. I think there are lots of guns in Michigan, so business will likely boom. No pun intended.

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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironfist View Post
    It is so sad that people's understanding of religion has become so distorted that he does not realize that what he is doing is immoral.
    If the guy read the bible and considered Jesus as a role model, he would see a prophet who showed compassion and love to the most socially ostracized people in his time. If Jesus touched lepers and broke bread with prostitutes and sinners, then I don't believe Jesus would refuse to sell something from his carpentry shop to a homosexual.

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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Most Christians consider themselves sinners, and most of them would feel it wrong or unacceptable if somebody from their past made a public display of their follies and sins, and refused to do business with them in front of their communities. The bible clearly says to not judge, and this guy is judging the weight of people's sin. The bible cautions against casting stones.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    And his position is hypocritical and wrong. There is absolutely no way he turns away others who are sinners (since everyone is a sinner). This is exactly why many of us support antidiscrimination laws that include sexuality.

    Heck, are those people who supported the baker and the pizzeria because "they didn't say they would refuse to serve gays at all" really going to support this guy? Or is it going to become "well it is legal"?

  7. #187
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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    I plan on publically smearing and discriminating against Brian Klawiter, because I find him lacking in moral character.
    Whatever melts your butter.
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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Quote Originally Posted by SheWolf View Post
    If the guy read the bible and considered Jesus as a role model, he would see a prophet who showed compassion and love to the most socially ostracized people in his time. If Jesus touched lepers and broke bread with prostitutes and sinners, then I don't believe Jesus would refuse to sell something from his carpentry shop to a homosexual.
    But would He sell something from His carpentry shop specifically to be used in a same sex marriage. I say, No, He wouldn't

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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Quote Originally Posted by Blemonds View Post
    But would He sell something from His carpentry shop specifically to be used in a same sex marriage. I say, No, He wouldn't
    The dude hung around and loved everyone but the self righteous. I think he would be cool with selling his goods to be used in a same-sex wedding. He was cool with the Centurian and his Pais afterall.

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    Re: Michigan Car Repair Shop Owner Says He Will Turn Away Openly Gay Customers ... An

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    The dude hung around and loved everyone but the self righteous. I think he would be cool with selling his goods to be used in a same-sex wedding. He was cool with the Centurian and his Pais afterall.
    Love ≠ Approval

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