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Thread: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    their economic model sucked. extended war in Afghanistan hurt them pretty badly, and the bottom dropping out of the oil market was the death blow. however, seeing that the rest of the world has it better than you makes you a lot less likely to put up with being walled in. the same thing will probably happen in Cuba.

    communist dictatorships don't work. get out of the way, and let the dictatorship fail.



    opening up Cuba and ceasing to be a convenient demon will result in less support for an obsolete dictatorship. hook them up to the net, and let the people make a decision. in the meantime, embargoes only punish the people and give the dictators someone else to blame.
    Thing is though Helix, that pretty much the rest of the world has already been trading with them, and tourism there as well, and it's not really changed the situation much. So how much do you really think that US engagement is going to change the situation inside of Cuba, really?
    It's a global Jihad, stupid. Allowing that poison into the country is only going to increase the damage it inflicts on others.
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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemSocialist View Post
    Not true. See the Helms-Burton Act. It expands the embargo, and penalizes foreign companies who trade with Cuba.
    I would argue that Act has been largely ineffective, given who all Cuba actively trades with. Everyone from Italy to France to Canada to just about everywhere in Central and South America. Plenty of nations, and as to the Act itself plenty of businesses and organizations.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Thing is though Helix, that pretty much the rest of the world has already been trading with them, and tourism there as well, and it's not really changed the situation much. So how much do you really think that US engagement is going to change the situation inside of Cuba, really?
    the real question is how is the embargo doing anything other than giving the dictator an external entity to blame for the failure of a communist dictatorship? when a policy fails for fifty some years, it's time to try something else. economic sanctions have only hurt the people of Cuba. the very few who run the place have done just fine.

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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Thing is though Helix, that pretty much the rest of the world has already been trading with them, and tourism there as well, and it's not really changed the situation much. So how much do you really think that US engagement is going to change the situation inside of Cuba, really?
    That is a very serious point. Our prior efforts to isolate Cuba did not really have lasting effect, especially once enough of the world simply moved on from that thinking we for some insane reason want to cling to.

    We have a better shot at relations through trade and diplomacy than isolationism that really did not work. At least in terms of forcing change from within Cuba.
    "Every time something really bad happens, people cry out for safety, and the government answers by taking rights away from good people." - Penn Jillette.

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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    the real question is how is the embargo doing anything other than giving the dictator an external entity to blame for the failure of a communist dictatorship? when a policy fails for fifty some years, it's time to try something else. economic sanctions have only hurt the people of Cuba. the very few who run the place have done just fine.
    True, but even if we had a 'non-engagement' policy, which didn't have any sanctions either, the Castro brothers would surely find some other external demon on which blame their self-inflicted lot. So I figure that's about even any way you cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    That is a very serious point. Our prior efforts to isolate Cuba did not really have lasting effect, especially once enough of the world simply moved on from that thinking we for some insane reason want to cling to.

    We have a better shot at relations through trade and diplomacy than isolationism that really did not work. At least in terms of forcing change from within Cuba.
    I'm not really against trade and diplomacy with Cuba, but in this international relationship, who's going to be the party that's going to gain the most? I really don't think that it's going to be the US. As such, then, Cuba needs to give some, such as releasing political prisoners, and other human rights issues, for example. Minimal cost, but something. Don't think that Obama's going to do that, or be able to do that.
    It's a global Jihad, stupid. Allowing that poison into the country is only going to increase the damage it inflicts on others.
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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    True, but even if we had a 'non-engagement' policy, which didn't have any sanctions either, the Castro brothers would surely find some other external demon on which blame their self-inflicted lot. So I figure that's about even any way you cut it.



    I'm not really against trade and diplomacy with Cuba, but in this international relationship, who's going to be the party that's going to gain the most? I really don't think that it's going to be the US. As such, then, Cuba needs to give some, such as releasing political prisoners, and other human rights issues, for example. Minimal cost, but something. Don't think that Obama's going to do that, or be able to do that.
    i want to see a policy that actually does something good for the people who live in Cuba, and i see zero evidence that a continued embargo is going to accomplish that.

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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    Yeah, I can see that, an idea being the most incestuous thing to try and stamp out in a totalitarian state. But is that form of mass communication effective at that, was all I was interested in.

    Interesting to note that 'TheDemSocialist' applauding, if I don't miss my guess, the importation, seeding and spreading of capitalistic and liberty ideas in the former Socialistic, Communistic totalitarian states that were once behind the Iron Curtain. Interesting.
    Most of the former Soviet Block, ex Communist/Marxist-Leninist states were far from socialism, and communistic ideas. Most were totalitarian state nightmares giving no real power and liberation to the working classes, but all that is a discussion for another time.
    Just a democratic-socialist in the heartland of America.CHECK OUT MY TUMBLR(BLOG)HERE "Life is beautiful. Let the future generations cleanse it of all evil, oppression, and violence, and enjoy it to the full."

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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i want to see a policy that actually does something good for the people who live in Cuba, and i see zero evidence that a continued embargo is going to accomplish that.
    us opening full trade with cuba won't do that either.

    there's lots of people who are not living under our definition of freedom or prosperity, there's no reason to force long term policy changes for that purpose.
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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    us opening full trade with cuba won't do that either.

    there's lots of people who are not living under our definition of freedom or prosperity, there's no reason to force long term policy changes for that purpose.
    i'm still waiting to see how a fifty plus year old embargo does anything to promote capitalism in Cuba.

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    Re: Obama removes Cuba from state sponsor of terror list

    Boy, it must suck to be a political prisoner in Cuba. Just hoping, praying for the Castros to go away. And right near the end, Obama swoops in and saves the day! For the Castros and subsequent dictators of Cuba, that is.

    Yep, Obama really put one over on them. Fooled them into letting us drop the sanctions, so they can reap in tons of money. And when that money starts rolling in, they won't keep it for themselves, or use it to further suppress the population, they will, of course, distribute it to the people! Because, you know, that's what dictators in a Police State do. Right?

    And then, the secret plan unfolds. The youth will want blue jeans and toilet paper, and the dictator won't be able to stop them! Flowers and rainbows everywhere!
    Obama, genius!!!

    Or, maybe they keep the cash, tighten their grip on power, and play Obama for a fool. Nah, it'll be the rainbows!
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