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Thread: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    In the US children between the ages of 5 and 14 are 17 times more likely to die from firearms than in the rest of the developed world. I seriously doubt that the majority of those within that young age group are all gang members
    Oh you want to start quoting numbers now, ok....

    You are 24.91 times more likely to simply trip over something and die then to die by any-kind of unintended gunshot.

    National Vital Statistics Report

    • Diseases of heart....................................652,091
    • Malignant neoplasms (Cancer).....................559,312
    • Cerebrovascular diseases (Strokes)..............143,579
    • Chronic lower respiratory diseases.............130,933
    • Accidents (unintentional injuries)...................117,809
    • Diabetes mellitus .....................................75,119
    • Alzheimer’s disease ..................................71,599
    • Influenza and pneumonia ..........................63,001
    • Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephritis...43,901
    • Septicemia..............................................34,1 36
    • Intentional self-harm (suicide)......................32,637
    • Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis................27,530
    • Hypertension and hypertensive renal disease.24,902
    • Parkinson’s disease ..................................19,544
    • Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids ............16,959
    • Simple Falling Down...................................19,656
    • Assault (homicide) by discharge of firearms.....12,352
    • Accidental discharge of Firearm.......................789
    • Suicide by Discharge of Firearms..................17,002
    • Accidental Drowning and Submersion............3,582
    • Accidental Poisoning.................................23,618
    • Motor Vehicle Accidents............................45,343
    • Non-Transport Accidents...........................69,368

    Sorry, you're not allowed to walk anymore. Wheelchairs for everyone, think of the children!

  2. #82
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    So we need to ban doctors, right?
    Yes yes yes and more die from old age every year too ..... but as long as the guns are safe right ?

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Yes they are inconsistent, that's why I don't pay them much heed anymore.
    They're really not. It's a matter of odds. To pick an unrelated example, wearing a seat belt causes some people in car wrecks TO die, and protects others FROM dying. We know this, but anyone who's not a fool and wants to minimize the risk of death in a car wreck puts on his seat belt even to go across the street to the store because we know seat belts save FAR more lives than result in deaths.

    There's a DOJ study that says you're more likely to survive a violent crime by resisting than not, and that resisting with a firearm is more effective than unarmed or with lesser weapons.

    That seems to contradict those other studies to some degree.
    No, see above.

    Then there's Kleck and others whose studies say DGUs (defensive gun uses) number from the hundreds of thousands to possibly over a million annually, in most cases with no shots fired. Anti-gunners tend to dismiss and poo-poo Kleck and the gazillion other studies of this type on the basis of data and method etc, so I guess I can do the same for THEIR studies.
    Sure you can, but there is some objective reality. Just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the evidence isn't actually a reasonable way to determine that.

    As for ball bats and frying pans, personally I feel a lot better confronting an intruder with a .45 in hand than any of those. Figure he's more likely to bolt too... and some intruders are not burglars, btw. Some of them will laugh at Joe Average with a ball bat or Jane Average with a frying pan...
    Some intruders aren't burglars, some are mass murdering rapists. But the odds are fairly low that's who you'll defend yourself against. More likely it's some sad guy with a meth addiction looking for a quick buck, and who will run and go to the next house.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Yes yes yes and more die from old age every year too ..... but as long as the guns are safe right ?
    Please quote me accurately or not at all.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Such claims are easy to make but impossible to substantiate. In my experience discussing this sort of topic the perception of crime is far greater than the reality of it, and claims like this are made mainly in order to protect the guns and not the people.

    No offence was intended


    You don't know me, and I understand that is a factor here.

    I am an honest man. I do not knowingly speak what I know to be untrue. It is a principle I have kept to most of my adult life, part of my personal code of behavior and morality.

    I've been on DP for several years. If I was a habitual liar it would surely have become obvious to the other long-timers by now.

    So yes, when I know I am speaking the truth and someone questions my honesty, it does not go over well.


    The fact of the matter is I live in a high crime area. It is odd, I didn't realize that it was so until I was an adult; I assumed we were "average". In point of fact we have approximately the same violent crime rates as Compton (a rather bad neighborhood around LA). I was amazed to find this out as an adult... you tend to assume that whatever you grow up with is "normal".

    Now out in the countryside, where I live, is not as bad as in town... but of course we go into town a lot. Also in recent years a veritable epidemic of Meth labs and meth use has caused a lot of problems with drug users stealing to get their fix and so on.

    Also I'm a former LEO, and in subsequent jobs have spent a good bit of time in "da hood" in town working.


    So that is where I'm coming from. It is simply fact that I've had a lot of violent or near-violent encounters in my life where I was glad to be armed. I lost a very dear friend in my early 20s who was murdered in a robbery. I'm currently sheltering a female family member from her ex, who only stays away not because of the protection order but because he knows I will shoot him at need.

    So that is where I am coming from. Perhaps it makes a little more sense now.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    They're really not. It's a matter of odds. To pick an unrelated example, wearing a seat belt causes some people in car wrecks TO die, and protects others FROM dying. We know this, but anyone who's not a fool and wants to minimize the risk of death in a car wreck puts on his seat belt even to go across the street to the store because we know seat belts save FAR more lives than result in deaths.



    No, see above.



    Sure you can, but there is some objective reality. Just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the evidence isn't actually a reasonable way to determine that.



    Some intruders aren't burglars, some are mass murdering rapists. But the odds are fairly low that's who you'll defend yourself against. More likely it's some sad guy with a meth addiction looking for a quick buck, and who will run and go to the next house.


    Mr. Jerry is our Keeper of Gun Stats, perhaps he will post some for us and we'll see if people want to accept or ignore them.

    Me, I go more by my experiences and the experiences of people I know. My experience says it is well to be armed.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Here's the thing...even if you and I shake hands and agree that having a gun in the home increases risk, I'm still going to support private gun ownership with as little restriction as possible. The child deaths by guns that you're trying to point to...even if I accept your argument I'm still going to see those deaths as an acceptable loss in exchange for the freedom and protection.
    I think you've mistaken me for someone else. I haven't pointed to child deaths, except perhaps that I don't have any problem whatsoever with a physician talking about gun safety and the risks firearms pose with young children in the house, and think it's boneheaded stupid to ban such discussions with a state law.

    We might disagree on what "with as little restrictions as possible" means, but I am not an advocate for any kind of gun ban.

    Some number of children are going to die from electrocution this year, that doesn't mean we need more electricity code.

    That's the price you pay for living in the modern world.
    I don't know if we need more code or not - I doubt it at this point - but if you've got a toddler, you should probably be aware of the risk of her chewing through a cord and make an informed decision if you decide to drape the cord for the fan across her crib and hang her pacifier from it.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the evidence isn't actually a reasonable way to determine that.
    I see you like evidence. I like evidence, too....


    Sources used in the video:


    Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive
    Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide?
    A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence.
    Din B. Kates* and Gary Mauser**


    The study, which just appeared in Volume 30, Number 2 of the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (pp. 649-694), set out to answer the question in its title: "Would Banning Firearms Reduce Murder and Suicide? A Review of International and Some Domestic Evidence." Contrary to conventional wisdom, and the sniffs of our more sophisticated and generally anti-gun counterparts across the pond, the answer is "no." And not just no, as in there is no correlation between gun ownership and violent crime, but an emphatic no, showing a negative correlation: as gun ownership increases, murder and suicide decreases.

    The findings of two criminologists - Prof. Don Kates and Prof. Gary Mauser - in their exhaustive study of American and European gun laws and violence rates, are telling:
    Nations with stringent anti-gun laws generally have substantially higher murder rates than those that do not. The study found that the nine European nations with the lowest rates of gun ownership (5,000 or fewer guns per 100,000 population) have a combined murder rate three times higher than that of the nine nations with the highest rates of gun ownership (at least 15,000 guns per 100,000 population)
    .
    EDITORIAL: Guns decrease murder rates
    In Washington, the best defense is self-defense
    By THE WASHINGTON TIMES


    More guns in law-abiding hands mean less crime. The District of Columbia proves the point.
    .....This correlation between the D.C. gun ban and diminished safety was not a coincidence. Look at the Windy City. Immediately after Chicago banned handguns in 1982, the murder rate, which had been falling almost continually for a decade, started to rise. Chicago's murder rate rose relative to other large cities as well. The phenomenon of higher murder rates after gun bans are passed is not just limited to the United States. Every single time a country has passed a gun ban, its murder rate soared.
    <snip>
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-14-15 at 02:30 PM.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Don't go ignoring that research now

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