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Thread: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

  1. #71
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    And far more children in the US die or are injured from gunshot than in the rest of the developed countries in world combined
    That's what happens when the "child" is in a gang and fights other gangs, fights cops, and commits violent crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Guns don't offer protection
    Biased source, try again.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I'm sorry you feel having a shotgun at home makes you less safe.
    I just trust the evidence. The odds of me dying from the hands of an intruder are roughly zero. A good friend of mine blew off the back of his head with his shotgun. That's more likely than being murdered by an intruder.

    I don't feel that my shotgun, my five pistols and three rifles make me and mine less safe. None of us are suicidal, and we're all taught from childhood how to handle arms safely.
    Family often don't know their family member is suicidal until they kill themselves. My friend was successful, two great kids, great wife, great job. I'd seen him 10 times in the previous six months. No one had a clue what he was going through until his wife left for the store one Saturday, and came back an hour later and found his brains splattered all over the study.

    Given that we had a recent incident where a certain criminal ran off from his victim when I arrived at the scene, and that his hasty flight was almost certainly a result of him knowing I'd be armed and that I would shoot him if need be, I personally feel much better about being armed than I would about being unarmed.
    That's fine. I don't feel any safer with a loaded weapon within easy reach so don't ever do it - the only time my guns are loaded are on the range or in the field. We make our own choices.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post



    So you claim ......hmmm


    If you're going to imply I am a liar, then I have no interest in conversing with you. I have questioned your studies, but not your personal honesty or sincerity. If you cannot return the same courtesy, then I don't care for your company.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I don't see how that's a reasonable way to go about evaluating evidence - just dismiss it all as irrelevant nonsense. There is an objective reality out there about the relative safety of owning a gun and keeping it at home. There is no way other than a study to determine what that is. It may not matter to you what the evidence shows, but that doesn't excuse disregarding all the best evidence we do have.

    It's not a question about whether guns do offer protection - of course they do on occasion. But what's often the case is someone, for example, scares a burglar out of their home with a gun. OK, that's good, but in almost all cases, a baseball bat or frying pan would work just as well, because few burglars are also cold blooded killers. They just move to the next house when confronted. Other times guns do stop wannabe murderers, but that's also not the question. What the studies seek to answer is whether owning a gun makes you safer or less safe, more or less likely to die as a result of murder or suicide. The evidence shows guns ARE often used for self defense but INCREASE your odds of dying. They're totally consistent findings.
    Here's the thing...even if you and I shake hands and agree that having a gun in the home increases risk, I'm still going to support private gun ownership with as little restriction as possible. The child deaths by guns that you're trying to point to...even if I accept your argument I'm still going to see those deaths as an acceptable loss in exchange for the freedom and protection.

    Some number of children are going to die from electrocution this year, that doesn't mean we need more electricity code.

    That's the price you pay for living in the modern world.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I just trust the evidence....
    Family often don't know their family member is suicidal until they kill themselves....

    I trust my eyes and the experience of 50 years of life. I trust my judgment about the people living under my roof. I trust the fact that I've needed to be armed several times already in my life suggests it may happen again.



    That's fine. I don't feel any safer with a loaded weapon within easy reach so don't ever do it - the only time my guns are loaded are on the range or in the field. We make our own choices.

    Yes sir we do, that is called Liberty. I would not dream of telling you that you HAD to have a loaded gun in your home. I tend to appreciate the same courtesy about my own choices from other free citizens of this great nation.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    It would be more accurate to equate the number of children in homes with firearms to the number of children that get into a car every day.

    Another fun statistic to look at is drowning deaths, specifically in swimming pools. According to the CDC:

    Children: Children ages 1 to 4 have the highest drowning rates. In 2009, among children 1 to 4 years old who died from an unintentional injury, more than 30% died from drowning.1,2 Among children ages 1 to 4, most drownings occur in home swimming pools.2 Drowning is responsible for more deaths among children 1-4 than any other cause except congenital anomalies (birth defects).1 Among those 1-14, fatal drowning remains the second-leading cause of unintentional injury-related death behind motor vehicle crashes.1


    Seeing as how there are far more guns in the US than there are swimming pools, I'd have to say it's downright irresponsible to let your child even get near one! A swimming pool, that is.
    Actually, it's still not a fair comparison. The quote I responded to talked about children in cars and compared them to children handling guns.

    If we're calling a child someone under under 6, how many children under 6 handle a loaded firearm without supervision? I hope not many, so to compare 10's of millions of children that get in cars or go near pools to the comparative few thousands of children that handle a loaded weapon and try to say that pools or cars are more dangerous isn't a fair comparison.

    It would be like comparing children that have a car in the home but never actually drive in it. If we're comparing children that have access to a pool, or drive in cars, we can only compare that to children who actually handle a firearm.
    Last edited by csbrown28; 04-14-15 at 01:25 PM.
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    If you're going to imply I am a liar, then I have no interest in conversing with you. I have questioned your studies, but not your personal honesty or sincerity. If you cannot return the same courtesy, then I don't care for your company.
    Such anecdotal claims are easy to make but impossible to substantiate. In my experience discussing this sort of topic the perception of crime is far greater than the reality of it, and claims like this are made mainly in order to protect the guns and not the people.

    No offence was intended
    Last edited by flogger; 04-14-15 at 01:11 PM.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Using law to change culture is an assholish approach, imho.
    I'm not suggesting that laws be used to change culture, but culture change is often the result rendering the need for the law that started it unnecessary in the long run.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    That's what happens when the "child" is in a gang and fights other gangs, fights cops, and commits violent crimes.
    In the US children between the ages of 5 and 14 are 17 times more likely to die from firearms than in the rest of the developed world. I seriously doubt that the majority of those within that young age group are all gang members

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Let's just call it a late term abortion and everybody will be happy.

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