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One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

I'm not suggesting that laws be used to change culture, but culture change is often the result rendering the need for the law that started it unnecessary in the long run.

Force has always been an effective tool at making people do what we want. I'm not a voluntaryist because I don't realize the effectiveness of force, but because I reject it as a basis of just human interaction.
 
This is absolutely tragic, the death of a child, especially so violently and horrifically is a haunting thought as a father myself.

But you can't legislate against stupidity.

Whoever left that gun where it was should face negligent homicide.

They didnt charge the cop I mentioned in a previous post.

At least, not until the public complained and contacted the dept. I was one of those people.

In the end, he got a hung jury and they decided not to retry.

Meanwhile, in a similar situation across the state where a 3 yr old got hold of parent's gun, and shot himself, BOTH parents were immediately charged with manslaughter.

The hypocrisy did not sit well.
 
I don't see the need for punishment in cases like this; I don't think they are likely to do it again.

It's esp. effective when they run out of kids :(
 
... but you can't make him realize he's doing the same thing he's accusing others of doing: ignoring the other's guy's stats and studies. :D

You are certainly in no position to go pointing fingers there frankly. Simply crying BS when you don't like something is hardly conducive to debate
 
it is about the parents's carelessness ,not gun control I think and that is one of the reasons why I believe not everybody should be allowed to have guns

LIke I just posted, cops do it too. Left a loaded gun in the glove compartment and left a 7 yr old and a 3 yr old alone in the van.

I dont think he should have even left kids that old alone in a van, much less with a loaded gun.
 
I backed up my position with evidence rather than subjective assertion . Perhaps you should do the same :roll:
You gave faulty research from biased sources giving a slanted presentation.
 
FTR I am opposed to seat belt laws. There are other ways to encourage responsible behavior without making it a mandate, and it isn't the gov's responsibility to save you from your own bad choices all the time.

The gov mainly uses seat belt laws to generate revenue via LE stops, and LE likes it because it gives them yet another excuse to stop people and be snoopy.

How would you have encouraged seat belt use?

Do you believe that it would have been as effective/ more effective than the law that was enacted? Explain?

As far as revenue generation, I don't believe that was the goal when the law was enacted, but I suspect there are places that it happens.

Compliance should be the goal, not revenue generation.
 
You are certainly in no position to go pointing fingers there frankly. Simply crying BS when you don't like something is hardly conducive to debate



Bud, I'm telling you that you're doing the same thing, exactly as predicted. This isn't my first gun debate; I've seen it so many times it isn't really funny anymore.


Both sides tend to ignore each others stats and studies, or just poo-poo them. Yes I am doing it, and so are you. So what's the point.
 
How would you have encouraged seat belt use?

Do you believe that it would have been as effective/ more effective than the law that was enacted? Explain?

As far as revenue generation, I don't believe that was the goal when the law was enacted, but I suspect there are places that it happens.

Compliance should be the goal, not revenue generation.



It ends up being revenue generation, and an excuse for road-blocks or stops.

It could have just as easily been encouraged by this law: "if you're not wearing your seat belt, then no one else is liable for any injuries you sustain."
 
You gave faulty research from biased sources giving a slanted presentation.

Prove it ?

Meanwhile

Over 7,000 children are hospitalized or killed due to gun violence every year, according to a new study published in the medical journal Pediatrics. An additional 3,000 children die from gun injuries before making it to the hospital, bringing the total number of injured or killed adolescents to 10,000 each year.The American Academy of Pediatrics wrote in 2012 that “firearm-related deaths continue as 1 of the top 3 causes of death in American youth.

Nearly 10,000 American children are injured or killed by guns every year | MSNBC

The number of US kids and teens who die from gunshot wounds in hospital has risen almost 60 percent in a decade, according to a new report.

The study by two doctors looked at data from 1997 to 2009, and found the number of those hospitalized with gunshot wounds rose from 4,270 to 7,730, while the number of those that then died from them climbed from 317 to 503.


US Child Gun Deaths Rose 60 Percent In 10 Years
 
Bud, I'm telling you that you're doing the same thing, exactly as predicted. This isn't my first gun debate; I've seen it so many times it isn't really funny anymore.

Both sides tend to ignore each others stats and studies, or just poo-poo them. Yes I am doing it, and so are you. So what's the point.

What have you presented that I've ignored ?
 
Prove it ?

Meanwhile

Over 7,000 children are hospitalized or killed due to gun violence every year, according to a new study published in the medical journal Pediatrics. An additional 3,000 children die from gun injuries before making it to the hospital, bringing the total number of injured or killed adolescents to 10,000 each year.The American Academy of Pediatrics wrote in 2012 that “firearm-related deaths continue as 1 of the top 3 causes of death in American youth.

Nearly 10,000 American children are injured or killed by guns every year | MSNBC

The number of US kids and teens who die from gunshot wounds in hospital has risen almost 60 percent in a decade, according to a new report.

The study by two doctors looked at data from 1997 to 2009, and found the number of those hospitalized with gunshot wounds rose from 4,270 to 7,730, while the number of those that then died from them climbed from 317 to 503.


US Child Gun Deaths Rose 60 Percent In 10 Years
Those are 2 more sources that assume the gun kept in the home is the gun which caused the injury. You have no proof that was the case. Again you offer faulty research.
 
Prove it ?

Meanwhile

Over 7,000 children are hospitalized or killed due to gun violence every year, according to a new study published in the medical journal Pediatrics. An additional 3,000 children die from gun injuries before making it to the hospital, bringing the total number of injured or killed adolescents to 10,000 each year.The American Academy of Pediatrics wrote in 2012 that “firearm-related deaths continue as 1 of the top 3 causes of death in American youth.

Nearly 10,000 American children are injured or killed by guns every year | MSNBC

The number of US kids and teens who die from gunshot wounds in hospital has risen almost 60 percent in a decade, according to a new report.

The study by two doctors looked at data from 1997 to 2009, and found the number of those hospitalized with gunshot wounds rose from 4,270 to 7,730, while the number of those that then died from them climbed from 317 to 503.


US Child Gun Deaths Rose 60 Percent In 10 Years



BULL ****. . I linked to the FBI uniform crime report, showing about fourteen thousand TOTAL murders per year for several years (from all weapons/causes)... you're trying to say over three thousand of them are "children"?


If you count 25yo gang bangers as "children", as some of these so -called "studies" have, perhaps.



Utter nonsense.
 
What have you presented that I've ignored ?
WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE MURDER AND SUICIDE? A REVIEW OF INTERNATIONAL AND SOME DOMESTIC EVIDENCE
Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy


Guns are just one among numerous available deadly instruments. Thus, banning guns cannot reduce the amount of suicides. Such measures only reduce the number of suicides by firearms. Suicides committed in other ways increase to make up the difference. People do not commit suicide because they have guns available. They kill themselves for reasons they deem sufficient, and in the absence of firearms they just kill themselves in some other way.
Causes of suicide:


Owning a firearm doesn't increase the chance of suicide, and no owning a firearm doesn't lower the chance of suicide.
 
Who are we supposed to be defending ourselves against that would require us to have such an arsenal. Ze Germans ? , The Zulu's ?, The Mafia ?

Your own govt of course.

Because you know that we'd come save your asses again if there was an outside threat.
 
Those are 2 more sources that assume the gun kept in the home is the gun which caused the injury. You have no proof that was the case. Again you offer faulty research.

Prove this research is faulty ? Your own subjective opinion doesn't cut it
 
BULL ****. . I linked to the FBI uniform crime report, showing about fourteen thousand TOTAL murders per year for several years (from all weapons/causes)... you're trying to say over three thousand of them are "children"?


If you count 25yo gang bangers as "children", as some of these so -called "studies" have, perhaps.

Utter nonsense.

Prove it ?
 
Prove this research is faulty ?
I did. The research doesn't prove that the gun which caused the death is the same gun which was kept in the home. The research claimed they were the same but nowhere in that study do yo find their proof. That's the fault, they made a claim without proof.

You want me to quote something, but that there's no proof to be quoted is the very thing which is faulty.
 
All Jerry's stats and studies for one.

His stats were 6 years old or more. I posted more recent and relevant data that countered them which you would already know had you bothered opening any of them :roll:

Now again what data have YOU posted that I've ignored ?
 
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It's a good bet that they won't do it again while they're locked up in prison, eh?

Same should happen to the parents that leave their kids to die in hot cars right?

How about the parents whose kid drowns in their pool?
 
The American Academy of Pediatrics wrote in 2012 that “firearm-related deaths continue as 1 of the top 3 causes of death in American youth.” [/I]
]



They are full of ****.

Firearm deaths don't make the top ten causes of death for children and adolescents.

Common Causes of Death for Children


1 2 and 3 are car accidents, drowning and fires.
 
The research cited assumes that if a person was killed and a gun was owned in the home, it was the gun in the home that was responsible for the death. In fact, virtually all of those deaths were due to guns being brought in by criminals getting into the home.

Faulty research.

Please provide a citation for that evidence.
 
His stats were 6 years old or more. I posted more recent and relevant data that countered them which you would already know had you bothered opening any of them :roll:

Now again what data have YOU posted that I've ignored ?



6 years old means they're irrelevant right? After all nothing that happened more than 6 years ago matters.

I didn't say you didn't have some excuse why not. I just said you ignored them as irrelevant, because you don't WANT to consider stats that don't support your position.


Just admit that's what you're doing.
 
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