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Thread: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Not only that, but suicides are lumped in with gun violence statistics. This is the root of all falsehood in statistics about gun ownership which is used to distort the facts by conflating gun ownership with cause of death. You may be more likely to use a gun in a suicide attempt if you own one, but that doesn't mean those people wouldn't have found another way to do the deed in the absence of a gun, i.e. the gun doesn't cause the suicide attempt. But then that gets logged as "gun violence" and then labeled "a murder" to those simply looking to grind an axe instead of pursue any kind of truth.
    Of course some of them would find another way, but none as effective, irreversible, quick and available at a moment of crisis than a firearm. Which is why I'm sure if one of your loved ones was suicidal, unless you're stupid, you'd take the guns out of the house if you could. Or, stated differently, would you try to cheer up a suicidal friend by buying him a Glock as a gift?

    The research isn't as clear that guns increase the risk of being a victim of homicide - in part because of what Jerry points out. But there is little question having a gun in the home ==> higher risk of suicide. Many studies, same result, and the risk is substantially higher.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    [QUOTE=JasperL;1064543516]Of course some of them would find another way, but none as effective, irreversible, quick and available at a moment of crisis than a firearm. Which is why I'm sure if one of your loved ones was suicidal, unless you're stupid, you'd take the guns out of the house if you could. Or, stated differently, would you try to cheer up a suicidal friend by buying him a Glock as a gift? [/qoute]

    You'd also take the knives, razor blades, lengths of rope, and bottles of pills out of the house. Probably the hard alcohol too. And I wouldn't try to cheer up a suicidal person with a gift of a knife, razor blade, length of rope, bottle of pills, or bottle of liquor.

    The research isn't as clear that guns increase the risk of being a victim of homicide - in part because of what Jerry points out. But there is little question having a gun in the home ==> higher risk of suicide. Many studies, same result, and the risk is substantially higher.
    A gun is arguably the most convenient way to do the deed, and gun ownership is very common. Roughly 40% of American households have a gun (as reported by a voluntary poll, so the numbers are likely higher), while around .01% of people commit suicide (in 2012, a remarkably bad year for it). Around half of those suicides used a gun, which is pretty close to household ownership rates.
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    [QUOTE=Gonzo Rodeo;1064544204]
    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Of course some of them would find another way, but none as effective, irreversible, quick and available at a moment of crisis than a firearm. Which is why I'm sure if one of your loved ones was suicidal, unless you're stupid, you'd take the guns out of the house if you could. Or, stated differently, would you try to cheer up a suicidal friend by buying him a Glock as a gift? [/qoute]

    You'd also take the knives, razor blades, lengths of rope, and bottles of pills out of the house. Probably the hard alcohol too. And I wouldn't try to cheer up a suicidal person with a gift of a knife, razor blade, length of rope, bottle of pills, or bottle of liquor.



    A gun is arguably the most convenient way to do the deed, and gun ownership is very common. Roughly 40% of American households have a gun (as reported by a voluntary poll, so the numbers are likely higher), while around .01% of people commit suicide (in 2012, a remarkably bad year for it). Around half of those suicides used a gun, which is pretty close to household ownership rates.



    Statistics only go so far.


    A gun in the home is not a suicide risk, if no one in the home is suicidal.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You'd also take the knives, razor blades, lengths of rope, and bottles of pills out of the house. Probably the hard alcohol too. And I wouldn't try to cheer up a suicidal person with a gift of a knife, razor blade, length of rope, bottle of pills, or bottle of liquor.
    But all those are far less effective and irreversible than one pull on a trigger, which is why attempted suicides by gun are FAR more often effective than with any other method.

    A gun is arguably the most convenient way to do the deed, and gun ownership is very common. Roughly 40% of American households have a gun (as reported by a voluntary poll, so the numbers are likely higher), while around .01% of people commit suicide (in 2012, a remarkably bad year for it). Around half of those suicides used a gun, which is pretty close to household ownership rates.
    I'm not sure what the point is really. Is it that the numbers aren't worth worrying about when it comes to the question of whether to buy a gun? Perhaps. But that doesn't change the overall point made earlier - the odds are that bringing a gun into the house increase the odds of death. I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't own firearms - I own several and they're in my home. I just think people should be aware of the risks - suicide risks go up and so does the risk that someone in your house will use the gun to kill someone else in the house. Take that into account and buy a gun anyway? Fine with me! That's my decision.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    But that doesn't change the overall point made earlier - the odds are that bringing a gun into the house increase the odds of death.
    No, they don't. Not in any significant way. Having a gun in the home can lead to an increase in the chance of death due to accidental discharge of a firearm, as it's easier to be shot with an existent gun than a nonexistent one , but accidental discharges of firearms make up less than half of a percent of accidental deaths in the household. So, even among accidental death statistics, firearms make up a very, very small number, meaning that just bringing a gun into the home does not raise your overall risk of dying in any significant way. If a person is committed to the idea of killing themselves, a gun is a pretty clear method to do so, but people also chose other methods about half the time. Men make up a large percentage of suicides, and are more likely to use a gun for a suicide than women (56% of male suicides vs 30% of female suicides), but that leaves 44% of men who use some other method. And seeing as how it is far and away the most reliable method, it makes sense this is the method people will chose who are serious about suicide.

    However, there is no causal link to gun ownership causing suicide. None whatsoever. Having a gun in the home does not cause a suicide attempt. To make such an argument is to display a fundamental flaw in understanding statistics. Suicide rates tend to peak during poor economic times and steadily decline as the economy improves. Suicides tend to cluster around the holidays. Suicide happens to men far more than women, and to whites far more than any other ethnic group. Veterans as a group display a high instance of suicide per their population, and most veterans are gun owners... but is it the fact that they own a gun that causes them to use it on themselves, or perhaps something more to do with their individual mental health coupled with a severe lack of support when they leave the military?

    I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't own firearms - I own several and they're in my home. I just think people should be aware of the risks - suicide risks go up and so does the risk that someone in your house will use the gun to kill someone else in the house. Take that into account and buy a gun anyway? Fine with me! That's my decision.
    I suppose owning spoons increases the risks of morbid obesity, since you can't eat ice cream without a spoon.
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    No, they don't. Not in any significant way. Having a gun in the home can lead to an increase in the chance of death due to accidental discharge of a firearm, as it's easier to be shot with an existent gun than a nonexistent one , but accidental discharges of firearms make up less than half of a percent of accidental deaths in the household. So, even among accidental death statistics, firearms make up a very, very small number, meaning that just bringing a gun into the home does not raise your overall risk of dying in any significant way. If a person is committed to the idea of killing themselves, a gun is a pretty clear method to do so, but people also chose other methods about half the time. Men make up a large percentage of suicides, and are more likely to use a gun for a suicide than women (56% of male suicides vs 30% of female suicides), but that leaves 44% of men who use some other method. And seeing as how it is far and away the most reliable method, it makes sense this is the method people will chose who are serious about suicide.

    However, there is no causal link to gun ownership causing suicide. None whatsoever. Having a gun in the home does not cause a suicide attempt. To make such an argument is to display a fundamental flaw in understanding statistics. Suicide rates tend to peak during poor economic times and steadily decline as the economy improves. Suicides tend to cluster around the holidays. Suicide happens to men far more than women, and to whites far more than any other ethnic group. Veterans as a group display a high instance of suicide per their population, and most veterans are gun owners... but is it the fact that they own a gun that causes them to use it on themselves, or perhaps something more to do with their individual mental health coupled with a severe lack of support when they leave the military?
    You say there is no causal link, but don't cite any evidence. In fact, if you look, I'm not sure there has been any study on suicide in the U.S. that doesn't find a greater risk for gun owners. I guess the point is that there is no point to looking at the evidence on this. I just don't agree.

    I suppose owning spoons increases the risks of morbid obesity, since you can't eat ice cream without a spoon.
    Has anyone looked at spoons, controlled for mental illness, etc and found that the non-existent homes without spoons had a lower risk of morbid obesity? Lots of studies have controlled for the points you mention to dismiss the gun ownership/suicide risk and found that having one in the home increases the odds a person successfully kills himself or herself.

    And I usually eat ice cream out of the carton with a fork - it's easier than a spoon when the ice cream is very cold.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You say there is no causal link, but don't cite any evidence. In fact, if you look, I'm not sure there has been any study on suicide in the U.S. that doesn't find a greater risk for gun owners. I guess the point is that there is no point to looking at the evidence on this. I just don't agree.
    That's because none exists. I could take every single study done that attempts to claim guns as a causative agent and show how there is no causative link proven in the study. I'll issue this challenge: post a study, and I'll show you how it doesn't prove a causative link. Other than that, I can't find a study that doesn't NOT prove such a thing, because you can't prove a negative. The only thing you can prove is that firearms are an effective method of suicide if someone chooses to do so.



    Has anyone looked at spoons, controlled for mental illness, etc and found that the non-existent homes without spoons had a lower risk of morbid obesity? Lots of studies have controlled for the points you mention to dismiss the gun ownership/suicide risk and found that having one in the home increases the odds a person successfully kills himself or herself.

    And I usually eat ice cream out of the carton with a fork - it's easier than a spoon when the ice cream is very cold.
    You mention controlling for data points, yet every study I've seen - every one - makes a weak causal argument in spite of controlling for almost no variables. Take the Harvard Study from 2008. As a quick example, that study compares suicides and gun ownership by state. Wyoming is given as an example of high gun ownership, and the correlation is made between that state and other states with low gun ownership rates and lower suicide rates. But what didn't the study control for? Rural vs urban. Mean vs median income. Male to female ratio imbalance. Divorce, Family, and Friend Of The Court practices. Mean age vs age of the suicide. Terminal illness (often a given reason for suicide). Average hours of sunlight. Percentage of the population on SSRIs. Average number of children. Prevalent religion and religious attitudes. Find me a study that even attempts to isolate variables, and I will gladly take a look at it.

    The US is top of the list for private gun ownership, yet only 30th in suicides per 100,000 citizens. The top of that list? Greenland, which doesn't even show up on the per capita gun ownership list. Second in suicides per 100,000 is Lithuania, ranking 160th in gun ownership. Third is South Korea, ranking 149th in gun ownership. Japan is seventh in suicides yet only 164th per capita in gun ownership. Why is that? If guns cause suicide, shouldn't the US be first on that list as well?
    Last edited by Gonzo Rodeo; 04-20-15 at 10:24 AM.
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Which is why I'm sure if one of your loved ones was suicidal, unless you're stupid, you'd take the guns out of the house if you could.
    I hope you realize that's a felony and would never actually do it.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    - the odds are that bringing a gun into the house increase the odds of death.
    You have yet to provide a source which proves this.
    Last edited by Jerry; 04-20-15 at 11:08 AM.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I hope you realize that's a felony and would never actually do it.
    What is the felony? My wife is suicidal - I move the guns to my mom's house. Tell me what crime I committed. My brother is suicidal, and his wife agrees to remove the guns. The crime is _________________?

    I didn't suggest stealing them or taking them otherwise without the appropriate permission. But if it came down to it and my loved one was clearly suicidal, I'd gladly commit a "felony" by removing the guns by whatever means I could and then invite the local DA to charge me with a crime and take me to trial. Guns aren't sacred objects...

    You have yet to provide a source which proves this.
    We've been through it. If you want to give a gun to a suicidal person and believe it has no effect on the odds of him or her successfully killing themselves, that's your business. I'll trust the reams of research that indicate otherwise.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    What is the felony?
    If you had the gun owner's permission then they had the firearm removed, you just did the leg work. But that's not what you said. If you remove a firearm someone els owns, that means you did not have their permission, and thus comitted a crime.

    Report dangerous people to the authorities and let the police hold the firearm; don't take the law into your own hands.

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