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Thread: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

  1. #201
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsunami View Post
    Kentucky: Caroline Sparks

    Pennsylvania: Owen Harris

    Cleveland: Braylon Robinson.

    Does that give you a clue as to why there might be a different standard?


    priv·i·lege
    ˈpriv(ə)lij/
    noun
    noun: privilege; plural noun: privileges
    1.
    a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group of people.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-co...n-w-175-a.html

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/gun-co...thers-gun.html

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Who's rights were being infringed on with seat belt laws?
    Did I say or imply that?
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

  3. #203
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    It ends up being revenue generation, and an excuse for road-blocks or stops.

    It could have just as easily been encouraged by this law: "if you're not wearing your seat belt, then no one else is liable for any injuries you sustain."
    Can't say I've ever seen a road block for anything but DUI stops.

    As far as your second statement, wasn't that already the case, even if it wasn't, I suspect that not much would have changed with seat belts or at the very least at the rate it did change. In the mean time we would have suffered tens if not hundreds of thousands of additional deaths and injuries as a result.

    I see value in the government enacting laws and policies that result in clear decreases in acute injuries and loss of life if those laws and policies can be demonstrated to show that it accomplishes the goal it sets for itself without undo cost or inconvenience to society. You believe that individuals are responsible for themselves and if a person makes a mistake that's on them (if I've misrepresented you, please correct me). The problem with this mode of thinking is that an individuals mistakes rarely affect only him/ herself.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

  4. #204
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Did I say or imply that?
    Well the difference is that gun ownership is a right. And as such, the bar should be much much higher regarding any laws applied to it.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #205
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Well the difference is that gun ownership is a right. And as such, the bar should be much much higher regarding any laws applied to it.
    I don't necessarily disagree, but is asking owners to secure there weapons setting the bar too high? I think not.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by ggwilder View Post
    One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home

    Right to bare arms? Shouldn't that right come with responsibility not to have a loaded gun where kids can get hold of them? Surely this is common sense. Another senseless and preventable death...face palm

    Gun control? No?
    How on earth can a child of three pull the trigger of a gun? I thought it needed at least some pressure to make it go off?

    The person who is responsible for leaving this gun in a place where children could get to it needs to be arrested and prosecuted.
    toward that end the tactics and the strategies that people resort to in carrying out this ideologically driven agenda of what they call “pro-life” which is really pro-fetus does not have anything to do with the lives of babies after they’re born or the women who bear them.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree, but is asking owners to secure there weapons setting the bar too high? I think not.
    Nothing wrong with 'asking.' It's legislating that we're talking about.

    And it wont make a difference. Laws dont stop irresponsibility and carelessness. Neither does training, as I provided the example of the cop.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  8. #208
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And it wont make a difference.
    Are you suggesting that laws don't matter? Clearly laws do make a difference in more ways than I could possible hope to enumerate here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Laws don't stop irresponsibility and carelessness.
    First, laws do change behavior for most people. Just look at the number of people that stop at red lights even when the consequences of running it (like when no one else is around) are zero, second, while we know that some people will violate laws anyway, doesn't that help determine who is irresponsible and careless, lastly, shouldn't the irresponsible and careless be punished? How can you punish someone for being careless and irresponsible if there isn't a law in place?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Neither does training, as I provided the example of the cop.
    I have apparently missed you're example, but in most cases training does matter. Without knowing specifically what you are referring to I'll just say that cops are rarely taught to negotiate, and even fewer are taught when to negotiate. Most rely on offensive pre-emptive tactics. Increasing resources, additional weapons and gear leaves many cops feeling as if the people they are entrusted to protect are the enemy. Most police train in low intensity scenarios where adrenaline, distractions and emotion are NOT in play. Now I'm not saying all, but most. I was with a group that trained police in "continuance of force" techniques and the attitudes of most of the cops I trained was, when considering non-lethal tactics, poor at best. Most saw their sidearm as the ultimate negotiating tool. They are under the false presumption that angry, afraid, drugged, psychotic and otherwise uncooperative people are perfectly rational. The iron is that police suffer from the same kind of irrational behavior as is evidenced almost daily as new video's pop up.

    Training does matter, but so does the kinds of training, the amount of training and the conditions under which you train.
    “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary (or faith) depends upon his not understanding it.”

  9. #209
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Are you suggesting that laws don't matter? Clearly laws do make a difference in more ways than I could possible hope to enumerate here.

    First, laws do change behavior for most people. Just look at the number of people that stop at red lights even when the consequences of running it (like when no one else is around) are zero, second, while we know that some people will violate laws anyway, doesn't that help determine who is irresponsible and careless, lastly, shouldn't the irresponsible and careless be punished? How can you punish someone for being careless and irresponsible if there isn't a law in place?

    I never said laws didnt matter, I said they dont stop carelessness and irresponsibility. Yes they can reduce *some* types of accidents or behavior but then you have to weigh those against overall freedom. I do see the point however where you point out that we cannot use the justice system to punish people for those things if we dont have laws, so I can see value there.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  10. #210
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Are you suggesting that laws don't matter? Clearly laws do make a difference in more ways than I could possible hope to enumerate here.



    First, laws do change behavior for most people. Just look at the number of people that stop at red lights even when the consequences of running it (like when no one else is around) are zero, second, while we know that some people will violate laws anyway, doesn't that help determine who is irresponsible and careless, lastly, shouldn't the irresponsible and careless be punished? How can you punish someone for being careless and irresponsible if there isn't a law in place?



    I have apparently missed you're example, but in most cases training does matter. Without knowing specifically what you are referring to I'll just say that cops are rarely taught to negotiate, and even fewer are taught when to negotiate. Most rely on offensive pre-emptive tactics. Increasing resources, additional weapons and gear leaves many cops feeling as if the people they are entrusted to protect are the enemy. Most police train in low intensity scenarios where adrenaline, distractions and emotion are NOT in play. Now I'm not saying all, but most. I was with a group that trained police in "continuance of force" techniques and the attitudes of most of the cops I trained was, when considering non-lethal tactics, poor at best. Most saw their sidearm as the ultimate negotiating tool. They are under the false presumption that angry, afraid, drugged, psychotic and otherwise uncooperative people are perfectly rational. The iron is that police suffer from the same kind of irrational behavior as is evidenced almost daily as new video's pop up.

    Training does matter, but so does the kinds of training, the amount of training and the conditions under which you train.
    Training has nothing to do with some things. Like wearing seat belts and leaving loaded guns where kids can get them. The example was a local cop who left a loaded gun in the glove compartment with a 7 yr old and a 3 yr old and went into a store. The 7 yr old killed his 3 yr old sister.

    IMO it was irresponsible to even leave kids that age alone. And btw, the dept chose not to charge him. It took the public speaking out and contacting them before they did.
    "Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free."

    "No, you'll be *a* judge of that, just like everyone else who reads it."
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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