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Thread: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

  1. #111
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The Guardian advocates policy and is therefore biased. Try again.
    Nonsense it cites the latest ONS figures

    Those numbers are generated from The Gun Control Network who advocates policy and is therefore biased. Try again.
    Prove its figures are wrong ?

    "Gun crime" is only part of the picture, my sources regarded ALL crime to give the complete picture. Try again.

    Another link only talking about "gun crime" not ALL crime. Here in America we use guns to prevent or stop non-gun offences, too, so your sources need to account for crimes which don't involve firearms. Try again.

    Another link only talking about "gun crime" not ALL crime so as to give a slanted view. Try again
    But gun crime is the topic at issue so I'm not about to indulge your attempted deflection 'try again'

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    So on the one hand you're saying having guns increases risk, yet you're saying we're so safe we don't need guns.
    Correct, that's what the data show. And the stats were from Jerry's video - the violent crime rate has been halved in recent decades, the murder rate halved, and still trending down, not up, etc. And, right, the vast majority of us do not need a gun to be safe. I'm 51 - never carried a gun, don't ever feel unsafe and can't name even one moment when having a gun would have made me more safe. I'm sure I'm the norm for my area.

    Yet the number of guns in the hands of citizens has gone way up over the past decade or two. Seeing a contradiction?
    The share of households with guns is going down, but those that do own guns are buying more of them.

    And no you haven't advocated any specific gun control... but you seem much more inclined to argue against gun ownership than for it, don't you?
    Not all that persuasively since I have in the closet at this moment 3 shotguns, two rifles and two pistols, not counting pellet guns.

    Bottom line is I'm not arguing for or against owning guns. I accept the risk because I like to hunt and shoot recreationally. What I don't do is pretend my hobbies come with no risk - they do. I've seen people shot in a dove field, had a guy blow out the side of a duck blind I was sitting in when his shotgun went off accidentally - missed my buddies knee by maybe an inch. A friend blew out his brain. Etc. They are weapons designed to kill, so there is a risk using them and having them around. Seems logical to me.

    We make our own choices in this regard. I'm for allowing us to make choices. I'd probably be OK with more "gun control" than you - registration, licensing fine with me - but I've never made a call to any legislator on the broad issue of gun control and don't really care about it when voting.

  3. #113
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I call horse****.


    Even the more conservative estimates on DGUs place them at 80,000 to 200,000 annually, in government funded studies which were actually about crime victims (NCVS).

    Other studies, some done by private universities, put annual DGU's at anything from 250,000 to 1.5 million.

    It seems very likely that the real number is in the hundreds of thousands. A median figure would be 500,000 DGUs annually, and in most cases no shots fired.

    So you're telling me there are 3.5 million assaults or murders (which?), 5.5 million suicide attempts (attempts? with a gun? what did they MISS?) and 2 million gun accidents?


    Horse ****.
    I backed up my position with evidence rather than subjective assertion . Perhaps you should do the same

  4. #114
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I call horse****.


    Even the more conservative estimates on DGUs place them at 80,000 to 200,000 annually, in government funded studies which were actually about crime victims (NCVS).

    Other studies, some done by private universities, put annual DGU's at anything from 250,000 to 1.5 million.

    It seems very likely that the real number is in the hundreds of thousands. A median figure would be 500,000 DGUs annually, and in most cases no shots fired.

    So you're telling me there are 3.5 million assaults or murders (which?), 5.5 million suicide attempts (attempts? with a gun? what did they MISS?) and 2 million gun accidents?


    Horse ****.

    To expand on that, there were in 2013 about fourteen thousand murders and about three quarters of a million aggravated assaults. Way below those numbers.

    Successful suicides by gun tend to run about 20,000 or so annually.

    So no dice.

    http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr..._1994-2013.xls

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  5. #115
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I backed up my position with evidence rather than subjective assertion . Perhaps you should do the same

    No point when you just ignore any stats you don't like, is there?

    As predicted.

    Stat-wars are pretty boring. We just "link at each other" while hardly anyone bothers to read any of it.

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  6. #116
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I think this child was shot because 1 adult was irresponsible, not because some grand audience on the national scale couldn't find common ground on some matter of policy.

    Child endangerment is already illegal so there's no more common ground to be had anyway.
    Again, should we not have enacted seat belt laws and chalked it up to failure to be responsible?
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Again, should we not have enacted seat belt laws and chalked it up to failure to be responsible?


    FTR I am opposed to seat belt laws. There are other ways to encourage responsible behavior without making it a mandate, and it isn't the gov's responsibility to save you from your own bad choices all the time.

    The gov mainly uses seat belt laws to generate revenue via LE stops, and LE likes it because it gives them yet another excuse to stop people and be snoopy.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    No point when you just ignore any stats you don't like, is there?

    As predicted.

    Stat-wars are pretty boring. We just "link at each other" while hardly anyone bothers to read any of it.
    You keep making this allegation yet provide the best example of someone doing so on this thread. Dismissing or ignoring something out of hand because you don't like what its saying is not addressing anything. Its simply circling the wagons and waving a flag

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    You keep making this allegation yet provide the best example of someone doing so on this thread. Dismissing something out of hand because you don't like what its saying is not addressing anything. Its simply circling the wagons and waving a flag



    Which is exactly what you're doing, which is exactly what I predicted, which I why I mostly stopped bothering with it some time ago.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    It's weird that you keep arguing against points I haven't made. Where did I suggest we legislate personal responsibility? The only thing I'd tell a mother is if she buys a gun for protection, the odds are that she increases the risk of her child dying, because that is what the data show. You mention your safety measures, which sound great. If you do that, that's commendable. But the fact is most people do not, and most people don't do it without mistakes because we're all human and forget - we change pants, put the gun on the table, someone comes to the door and the gun is left there, etc. A million ways someone meaning well can make a fatal error. And the data indicate that guns at home increase the rate of death for those reasons and (more significantly) increase the risk you get drunk and in a fight with your wife and instead of hit her, shoot her in the head. Or you get depressed and pull that gun out and kill yourself.
    The research cited assumes that if a person was killed and a gun was owned in the home, it was the gun in the home that was responsible for the death. In fact, virtually all of those deaths were due to guns being brought in by criminals getting into the home.

    Faulty research.

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