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Thread: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

  1. #91
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.


    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Oh you want to start quoting numbers now, ok....

    You are 24.91 times more likely to simply trip over something and die then to die by any-kind of unintended gunshot.



    Sorry, you're not allowed to walk anymore. Wheelchairs for everyone, think of the children!
    The point I keep trying to make isn't to compare the numbers of deaths from certain activities to other activities, but how preventable deaths are from activities relative to the need to partake and the assumption of risk relative to the benefits. Most of what you've listed are illnesses of some type where the actions needed to prevent them, if they can be prevented at all are worse than the risk we take if we get them.

    Responsible firearm ownership may inconvenience the owner slightly, but when compared to the risk, especially to those that had nothing to do with the decision to handle the firearm in the first place (in the case of this thread that would be the 1yo that got shot) it seems acceptable that society asks this of firearm owners.

    The problem is that any form of capitulation is perceived as a slippery slope that ends with the Government confiscating firearms from everyone. Given the national debate where both sides can overstep their bounds the hysteria on both sides continues and 1 year old's are shot by their 3 year old siblings because the adults in this country can't find the middle ground.
    Last edited by csbrown28; 04-14-15 at 02:48 PM.
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    The point I keep trying to make isn't to compare the numbers of deaths from certain activities to other activities, but how preventable deaths are from activities relative to the need to partake and the assumption of risk relative to the benefits. Most of what you've listed are illnesses of some type where the actions needed to prevent them, if they can be prevented art all are worse than the risk we take if we get them.

    Responsible firearm ownership may inconvenience the owner slightly, but when compared to the risk, especially to those that had nothing to do with the decision to handle the firearm in the first place (in the case of this thread that would be the 1yo that got shot) it seems acceptable that society asks this of firearm owners.

    The problem is that any form of capitulation is perceived as a slippery slope that ends with the Government confiscating firearms from everyone. Given the national debate where both sides can overstep their bounds the hysteria on both sides continues and 1 year old's are shot by their 3 year old siblings because the adults in this country can't find the middle ground.


    Then tell us what legislation would have surely prevented this incident.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    I see you like evidence. I like evidence, too....
    Is there a point somewhere? I haven't advocated for gun control. And I watched 3 minutes of the first video - what he says is violent crime has dropped significantly - thanks EPA for the ban on lead!!! - and most crime is in big cities and in particular neighborhoods in big cities. So why the push to buy guns and to carry them? We're safer than ever and yet more and more people are buying more guns, more ammo and getting carry permits? That makes no sense to me, but it's also irrelevant to any point I've made in this discussion, which doesn't include any suggestion for more 'gun control.'

    What I've said is the evidence is that if you buy a gun for 'protection' the odds are you have made yourself and your family less safe and more likely to die, generally by suicide or the hands of a loved on or acquaintance. If you've got a study that contradicts that, maybe we can discuss.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by csbrown28 View Post
    Actually, it's still not a fair comparison. The quote I responded to talked about children in cars and compared them to children handling guns.

    If we're calling a child someone under under 6, how many children under 6 handle a loaded firearm without supervision? I hope not many, so to compare 10's of millions of children that get in cars or go near pools to the comparative few thousands of children that handle a loaded weapon and try to say that pools or cars are more dangerous isn't a fair comparison.

    It would be like comparing children that have a car in the home but never actually drive in it. If we're comparing children that have access to a pool, or drive in cars, we can only compare that to children who actually handle a firearm.
    How many children go near the pool unattended? How many children play at other children's houses that may have swimming pools?

    How is a swimming pool any different than a gun to a child, when they both seem to kill pretty indiscriminately?
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    And as predicted, Side Anti ignores Side Pro's stats in favor of their own...
    No. Just that the more recent stats are more relevant to the discussion

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I think you've mistaken me for someone else. I haven't pointed to child deaths, except perhaps that I don't have any problem whatsoever with a physician talking about gun safety and the risks firearms pose with young children in the house, and think it's boneheaded stupid to ban such discussions with a state law.

    We might disagree on what "with as little restrictions as possible" means, but I am not an advocate for any kind of gun ban.



    I don't know if we need more code or not - I doubt it at this point - but if you've got a toddler, you should probably be aware of the risk of her chewing through a cord and make an informed decision if you decide to drape the cord for the fan across her crib and hang her pacifier from it.
    The gun-owning community is hanging this woman out to dry over this incident. So let's just be clear from the get-go that this is not ok.

    When I had a toddler in the house, I also had a gun in the house; in my right front pocket, to be exact. It was either in my pocket, or in the safe, no exceptions. While in the safe it was unloaded and trigger locked, because redundant levels of safety is the way to be.

    You can't legislate personal responsibility. If you can't trust a person with a gun, then you can't trust them with a child, or a car, or any meaningful job, or even a box cutter.

    When a nation passes a handgun ban they're saying they can't be trusted with anything.

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Is there a point somewhere? I haven't advocated for gun control. And I watched 3 minutes of the first video - what he says is violent crime has dropped significantly - thanks EPA for the ban on lead!!! - and most crime is in big cities and in particular neighborhoods in big cities. So why the push to buy guns and to carry them? We're safer than ever and yet more and more people are buying more guns, more ammo and getting carry permits? That makes no sense to me, but it's also irrelevant to any point I've made in this discussion, which doesn't include any suggestion for more 'gun control.'

    What I've said is the evidence is that if you buy a gun for 'protection' the odds are you have made yourself and your family less safe and more likely to die, generally by suicide or the hands of a loved on or acquaintance. If you've got a study that contradicts that, maybe we can discuss.

    So on the one hand you're saying having guns increases risk, yet you're saying we're so safe we don't need guns.

    Yet the number of guns in the hands of citizens has gone way up over the past decade or two. Seeing a contradiction?


    And no you haven't advocated any specific gun control... but you seem much more inclined to argue against gun ownership than for it, don't you?

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    No. Just that the more recent stats are more relevant to the discussion



    You ignored and declined to address any of the stats or studies Jerry posted.

    As predicted.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
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    Re: One-year-old shot dead by 3-year old in Cleveland home.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post


    You ignored and declined to address any of the stats or studies Jerry posted.

    As predicted.
    Those stats are well out of date as illustrated and addressed. You are hardly in a position to censure anyone on ignoring studies

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