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Thread: Cop shoots suspect, mistakes gun for tazer

  1. #131
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    Re: Cop shoots suspect, mistakes gun for tazer

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    All we have is anecdotes on either side of the argument. That's why your presumption that because you've seen a couple of shooting on TV that it must be a trend is a farce.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/31/su...more.html?_r=0
    The only ASSuming that is going on here is you thinking that because I saw "a couple of shootings on TV that it must be a trend" that is where I get my news (as if you have any clue). In fact, if you read my posts on this thread, I actually produced some external evidence that I used to challenge the previous poster. So, even if I saw "a couple of shootings on TV...", I at least went to another source to verify. OTH, the other guy could only post a couple of anecdotes, which, as I pointed out, is only an argument in an "all" or "none" debate. I can assure you that one thing you know nothing about is where I get my news AND the evidence is contrary to your assertion.

    So, congratulations for at least attempting to back up your post. Well done. As the post points out, there isn't much direct evidence to support this kind of shooting as police departments do not collect the evidence (we can speculate as to why), but, we do know many things, including and especially that blacks are disproportionately prosecuted (including receiving stiffer sentences for the same crime) AND, as a police study shows, cops are more likely to fire on a black man than a white man in similar circumstances.

    Trends in Mortality Due to Legal Intervention in the United States, 1979 Through 1997
    Deadly Force, in Black and White - ProPublica
    Local police involved in 400 killings per year
    Police Chief Magazine - View Article
    Killed by the Cops | Colorlines
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/op...a-arrests.html and https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/11...fs-rel1.pdf#11
    https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...united-states/
    http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc...ing_review.pdf

    I produced a document that says blacks are killed by white cops at the rate of 2 times per week. I asked the other poster to show me where whites are killed at a greater rate (which they actually are, but he could not produce the data. All he could show was two anecdotes. I rightfully and correctly called him out.)

    Now that you are in the fray, show us evidence that there is no discrimination of police violence between whites and blacks. In other words, intelligently and substantively refute the cites I have provided, lest I accuse you of simply reiterating something you heard on Fox.
    Last edited by upsideguy; 04-24-15 at 01:41 AM.

  2. #132
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    Re: Cop shoots suspect, mistakes gun for tazer

    Quote Originally Posted by Capster78 View Post
    If you don't run, argue or fight with police, you won't get shot.
    Bull****. Cops will shoot a person if they think they can get a paid vacation out of it.

  3. #133
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    Re: Cop shoots suspect, mistakes gun for tazer

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    The only ASSuming that is going on here is you thinking that because I saw "a couple of shootings on TV that it must be a trend" that is where I get my news (as if you have any clue). In fact, if you read my posts on this thread, I actually produced some external evidence that I used to challenge the previous poster. So, even if I saw "a couple of shootings on TV...", I at least went to another source to verify. OTH, the other guy could only post a couple of anecdotes, which, as I pointed out, is only an argument in an "all" or "none" debate. I can assure you that one thing you know nothing about is where I get my news AND the evidence is contrary to your assertion.

    So, congratulations for at least attempting to back up your post. Well done. As the post points out, there isn't much direct evidence to support this kind of shooting as police departments do not collect the evidence (we can speculate as to why), but, we do know many things, including and especially that blacks are disproportionately prosecuted (including receiving stiffer sentences for the same crime) AND, as a police study shows, cops are more likely to fire on a black man than a white man in similar circumstances.

    Trends in Mortality Due to Legal Intervention in the United States, 1979 Through 1997
    Deadly Force, in Black and White - ProPublica
    Local police involved in 400 killings per year
    Police Chief Magazine - View Article
    Killed by the Cops | Colorlines
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/op...a-arrests.html and https://www.aclu.org/files/assets/11...fs-rel1.pdf#11
    https://www.americanprogress.org/iss...united-states/
    http://www.sentencingproject.org/doc...ing_review.pdf

    I produced a document that says blacks are killed by white cops at the rate of 2 times per week. I asked the other poster to show me where whites are killed at a greater rate (which they actually are, but he could not produce the data. All he could show was two anecdotes. I rightfully and correctly called him out.)

    Now that you are in the fray, show us evidence that there is no discrimination of police violence between whites and blacks. In other words, intelligently and substantively refute the cites I have provided, lest I accuse you of simply reiterating something you heard on Fox.
    And, per the NYT article that I posted, none of those studies have any validity because we don't have data on it. Those numbers aren't reported by most law enforcement agencies. But, because they say what you want them to say you cling to them and won't let go.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

  4. #134
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    Re: Cop shoots suspect, mistakes gun for tazer

    Quote Originally Posted by ksu_aviator View Post
    And, per the NYT article that I posted, none of those studies have any validity because we don't have data on it. Those numbers aren't reported by most law enforcement agencies. But, because they say what you want them to say you cling to them and won't let go.
    ...of course, if you actually read the first three paragraphs of the article you posted, it frames my argument nicely...

    "....IF anything good has come out of this month’s fatal shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., it is that the death of the black teenager shined a spotlight on the plague of shootings of black men by white police officers. And maybe now, the nation will begin to address the racism behind it.

    That is the conventional wisdom, anyway, and maybe it is true. Only a fool would deny that racial bias still pervades aspects of American society. The evidence is clear that some police law-enforcement tactics — traffic stops, to cite one example — disproportionately target African-Americans. And few doubt that blacks are more likely than whites to die in police shootings; in most cities, the percentage almost certainly exceeds the African-American share of the population.

    Such arguments suggest that the use of deadly force by police officers unfairly targets blacks. All that is needed are the numbers to prove it...."


    Had you actually read my post (which clearly you did not), I was merely pointing out the overwhelming evidence of unequal protection of blacks under the law AND I produced a police study that shows cops are quicker to shoot at blacks than at whites. While there is no empirical evidence collected on the specific question at hand, there is a ton of evidence that supports the notion that blacks (and other minorities) are not treated the same way by the system as whites. Its hardly a stretch of logic to use this data to validate the notion that blacks being shot by white cops is a bigger problem than the other way around.

    I don't know about you, but I certainly don't "want" these studies to tell me that white cops kill more unarmed blacks than whites or vice-versa. I find such outcomes appalling. But, I also don't want people to stick their head in the sand and tell me there is no problem, for as your Times article (which you produced as evidence for your position) pointed out: "....only a fool would deny that racial bias still pervades aspects of American society...." and surely you do not want to be that fool.

  5. #135
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    Re: Cop shoots suspect, mistakes gun for tazer

    Quote Originally Posted by upsideguy View Post
    ...of course, if you actually read the first three paragraphs of the article you posted, it frames my argument nicely...

    "....IF anything good has come out of this month’s fatal shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., it is that the death of the black teenager shined a spotlight on the plague of shootings of black men by white police officers. And maybe now, the nation will begin to address the racism behind it.

    That is the conventional wisdom, anyway, and maybe it is true. Only a fool would deny that racial bias still pervades aspects of American society. The evidence is clear that some police law-enforcement tactics — traffic stops, to cite one example — disproportionately target African-Americans. And few doubt that blacks are more likely than whites to die in police shootings; in most cities, the percentage almost certainly exceeds the African-American share of the population.

    Such arguments suggest that the use of deadly force by police officers unfairly targets blacks. All that is needed are the numbers to prove it...."


    Had you actually read my post (which clearly you did not), I was merely pointing out the overwhelming evidence of unequal protection of blacks under the law AND I produced a police study that shows cops are quicker to shoot at blacks than at whites. While there is no empirical evidence collected on the specific question at hand, there is a ton of evidence that supports the notion that blacks (and other minorities) are not treated the same way by the system as whites. Its hardly a stretch of logic to use this data to validate the notion that blacks being shot by white cops is a bigger problem than the other way around.

    I don't know about you, but I certainly don't "want" these studies to tell me that white cops kill more unarmed blacks than whites or vice-versa. I find such outcomes appalling. But, I also don't want people to stick their head in the sand and tell me there is no problem, for as your Times article (which you produced as evidence for your position) pointed out: "....only a fool would deny that racial bias still pervades aspects of American society...." and surely you do not want to be that fool.
    And you skipped the very next line that said "But those numbers don't exist." As I said. Everything that you quoted was conjecture. It was guessing. It was story telling and it is all based on anecdotal evidence. The numbers don't exist. If they did, it wouldn't be a debate. Large amounts of data are needed. To make the declaration that it must be true because so and so said so is asinine. The data isn't there to support a theory one way or another.
    You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

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