Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 33

Thread: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

  1. #11
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:39 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,982

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by OrphanSlug View Post
    Greece has no choice, their economic model is floating in a toilet bowl and we are ever closer to their confrontation with their creditors. Including Germany.

    Speak of. Of course the same day that Greece talks to Russia happens to be when Greece finally put a price tag on WWII reparations. Greece says Germany owes it €278.7 billion for various reasons related to WWII (everything from occupation to stolen archaeological objects.)

    It really is clear that those in charge in Greece have lost their collective minds.
    I am not so sure about that. Greek debt cannot be paid back. We have known that since 2008. Since then it has been only a question of who takes the hit and how to disguise it from the populations that must.

    And as far as the WW2 stuff. Germany has for decades treated the thing in a devastating way. Remember how they treated the slave laborers? Waiting till most had died before international pressure became so high that they could no longer wait? And now to use the title of the 4+1 treaty saying it is not a formal "peace treaty" and thus avoiding paying back debts (10 billions Euro) that they made in Athens literally at gunpoint.

    They are quite right to demand that cash. Whether the total is 110 billions or 315 billions of Euros is something else. But it is a substantial amount that the Germans used to build their economy after the war and the Greeks did not get back.

  2. #12
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:39 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,982

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    Although much of what you said is most certainly true, you can bet the U.S. would be very concerned about the prospects of a Russian naval base in Greece. As such, there will be some pressure on the E.U. to cut Greece a reasonable deal.
    The Chinese are allready building a naval base in Piräus. At this point it is still merchant, but we shall see.

  3. #13
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:39 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,982

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Greece is desperately seeking increased leverage. However, Greece very likely has far more to lose if it exits the EU than if it stays in the EU. Were Greece to become a de facto Russian puppet in EU meetings via its regularly vetoing measures that would increase or sustain pressure on Russia, its days in the EU would be numbered.

    Russia is currently under economic and financial pressure. Russia will not deal with Greece in an altruistic fashion. It would seek significant concessions that benefit its interests in exchange for significant financial aid. President Putin is very focused on advancing Russia's interests.

    The EU is not naive. It has a pretty good understanding of President Putin. It also understands that Greece won't materially increase its bargaining position in its outreach to Russia given the above trade-offs, especially now that the risk of contagion for a Greek exit is lower than it was a few years ago.

    In the end, Greece might secure some assistance from Russia, but it probably won't be substantial, much less an alternative to the EU's/IMF's package. Greece cannot make the kind of commitments Russia would seek for a full-fledged financial rescue without inflicting even greater harm on itself (possible loss of EU membership, loss of access to the Common Market that would more than offset any increased economic activity with Russia, undermined standing within NATO, etc.). Indeed, the EU might not find a modest Russian package too objectionable, as it could spread the proverbial risk in helping Greece through its challenges.
    Why should Greece leave the EU? Just default and introduce a parallel currency. Details need working out and the EU is vindictive. But that was the best strategy 7 years ago and remains so.

  4. #14
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    02-01-17 @ 09:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    11,667

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Why should Greece leave the EU? Just default and introduce a parallel currency. Details need working out and the EU is vindictive. But that was the best strategy 7 years ago and remains so.
    I'm not arguing that Greece should leave the EU. I am suggesting that if it were to become a de facto Russian puppet, the EU might seek to revoke its membership. Such a situation would also raise legitimate questions about Greece's reliability as a NATO partner. Greece has too much to lose. It won't become such a de facto puppet. Therefore, significant financial relief won't be forthcoming from Russia, though more modest assistance is possible. In turn, Greece's outreach to Russia won't materially strengthen its weak bargaining position.

  5. #15
    Gradualist

    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Last Seen
    09-25-17 @ 11:48 AM
    Lean
    Socialist
    Posts
    34,949
    Blog Entries
    6

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    "Athens has not formally asked Moscow for financial help to pay off its debt, Russian President Putin said after he met with Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras in Moscow on Wednesday.

    “The Greek side did not contact us with any requests for help,” the Russian president said, when asked by a journalist whether Russia could help Greece with its debt burden."
    http://rt.com/business/247921-russia...putin-tsipras/


  6. #16
    Iconoclast
    DaveFagan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    wny
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:15 PM
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    7,140

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I'm not arguing that Greece should leave the EU. I am suggesting that if it were to become a de facto Russian puppet, the EU might seek to revoke its membership. Such a situation would also raise legitimate questions about Greece's reliability as a NATO partner. Greece has too much to lose. It won't become such a de facto puppet. Therefore, significant financial relief won't be forthcoming from Russia, though more modest assistance is possible. In turn, Greece's outreach to Russia won't materially strengthen its weak bargaining position.
    NATO partner or slave to International Bankers? One man's sweet meats is another man's poison. Russia's decision to run the Turkish Stream pipeline to Greece was a stroke of genius. First, Russia eliminates the untrustworthy Ukrainians in Kiev from the Gas Transit Business. Second, Greece is given the opportunity to make jobs and money for Greeks by becoming the new Gas Transit hub. This is a two way street and not a screw job as the USA poodle EU was attempting by excessive demands on the South Stream pipeline. A simple failure generated by greed and bad politics. Greece positions itself to have an option if default is necessary, and it may be. The IMF expects to exert National control of the Nations indebted to it. Or, stated amother way, the Bankers want to run the World. An oversimplification, but true.

  7. #17
    Sage

    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:39 PM
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    41,982

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    I'm not arguing that Greece should leave the EU. I am suggesting that if it were to become a de facto Russian puppet, the EU might seek to revoke its membership. Such a situation would also raise legitimate questions about Greece's reliability as a NATO partner. Greece has too much to lose. It won't become such a de facto puppet. Therefore, significant financial relief won't be forthcoming from Russia, though more modest assistance is possible. In turn, Greece's outreach to Russia won't materially strengthen its weak bargaining position.
    So described, the Greeks good improve their negotiation position quite a bit. I am not sure that the EU can push Greece out of the Union legally. But having seen the way the EU handles law, I am sure they would be able to kick a (small) country out, especially with the ruling court being European.

  8. #18
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 08:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by donsutherland1 View Post
    Greece is desperately seeking increased leverage. However, Greece very likely has far more to lose if it exits the EU than if it stays in the EU. Were Greece to become a de facto Russian puppet in EU meetings via its regularly vetoing measures that would increase or sustain pressure on Russia, its days in the EU would be numbered.

    Russia is currently under economic and financial pressure. Russia will not deal with Greece in an altruistic fashion. It would seek significant concessions that benefit its interests in exchange for significant financial aid. President Putin is very focused on advancing Russia's interests.

    The EU is not naive. It has a pretty good understanding of President Putin. It also understands that Greece won't materially increase its bargaining position in its outreach to Russia given the above trade-offs, especially now that the risk of contagion for a Greek exit is lower than it was a few years ago.

    In the end, Greece might secure some assistance from Russia, but it probably won't be substantial, much less an alternative to the EU's/IMF's package. Greece cannot make the kind of commitments Russia would seek for a full-fledged financial rescue without inflicting even greater harm on itself (possible loss of EU membership, loss of access to the Common Market that would more than offset any increased economic activity with Russia, undermined standing within NATO, etc.). Indeed, the EU might not find a modest Russian package too objectionable, as it could spread the proverbial risk in helping Greece through its challenges.
    I hear what you are saying, but it appears to me that EU membership is doing Greece more harm than good. It's hard for me to understand how staying in the EU benefits Greece at this point. I'm open to hearing the case.

  9. #19
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Last Seen
    08-18-15 @ 08:36 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    4,974

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The Chinese are allready building a naval base in Piräus. At this point it is still merchant, but we shall see.
    I don't think a Chinese naval base in Greece would mean a whole lot. A Russian base would have quite substantial meaning as it would allow them to offset NATO power in Turkey which currently contains Russian power to the Caspian sea area.

  10. #20
    Sage

    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    New York
    Last Seen
    02-01-17 @ 09:45 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    11,667

    Re: Putin Meets With Alexis Tsipras of Greece Amid E.U. Strains

    Quote Originally Posted by MildSteel View Post
    I hear what you are saying, but it appears to me that EU membership is doing Greece more harm than good. It's hard for me to understand how staying in the EU benefits Greece at this point. I'm open to hearing the case.
    A number of reasons:

    1. Greece's access to major export markets (Italy and Germany are its 2nd and 3rd biggest export markets): https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...s/2050.html#gr
    2. Its banks have access to the ECB and that access has averted destructive runs on the Greek financial system despite Greece's prolonged debt-driven economic contraction
    3. Were Greece to exit the EU, it would have no access to international financial markets. Given its large trade deficit and inability to meet debt obligations without assistance, Greece would wind up in a much more severe economic crisis than is the case today.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •