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Thread: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

  1. #521
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    The argument of fine tuning always goes on and on about the infinitesimal chance that the universe would exist as it is without some creator deity making it perfect just for us.
    The argument you speak of is easy to address with this simple question

    Who created the creator ?
    Last edited by flogger; 04-20-15 at 09:25 AM.

  2. #522
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Actually it's not. The Communist party wanted the people to believe in Communism, that that is where their faith should reside. Communists believed, and with some justification, that only one sincere belief was possible and that others should be controlled or avoided.
    In Communism, the deity is arguably the government or the leader (Mao in China? The Kims from North Korea?). Cults of personalities, all of them.

    Not a serious response, bud.
    Mine was very serious. You wanted to claim it. You can't defend it. Look at the most non-religious countries. I'm trying to think of the last census I saw. I think Australia, the Nordic countries, Canada, France and South Korea? In other words, places with higher qualities of life and stable atmospheres. Oops.
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  3. #523
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    1: How can there be free will in a purely materialistic universe?
    Why not ?

    2: on what basis can we make moral judgments?
    On the basis of civilised societal norms

    3: what explains the fine tuning of the universe?
    Why does it need an explanation ? Its nature doing what it does

    4: what accounts for the resurrection of Jesus?
    Superstitious mumbo jumbo written by men centuries after the alleged event

    5: What caused the universe to exist?
    What caused its alleged creator to exist before it ?

  4. #524
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Why not ?



    On the basis of civilised societal norms



    Why does it need an explanation ? Its nature doing what it does



    Superstitious mumbo jumbo written by men centuries after the alleged event



    What caused its alleged creator to exist before it ?
    1. Free Will
    Okay, for those of you who fit this criteria, here’s my question. If matter and energy are all that exist in the universe, then how do you rationally defend the idea that you have free will and can properly use logic?

    The point is this--how can you as a strict materialist really trust your own mind? I mean, if everything in the universe is matter and energy, then that means your physical brain is bound by the laws of physics. Think about this. In a purely materialistic worldview where the human brain is nothing more than the summation of chemicals and brain wiring, how do you justify having both free will and rationality?
    You see, it’s a brain problem.
    How does one chemical state of the brain that is altered by the electrical firing of neurons, which leads to another chemical state in your brain, produce free thought and logical inference?

    If your brain is hardwired and constrained by the physical laws, then it cannot act outside of those laws or outside the limits of the hardwiring. It is, in essence, caged in by the limits of physical properties and cannot break free of them.
    This would mean that whatever stimulus you receive, such as being asked a question, will result in a specific response that must be in accordance with whatever arrangement your brain’s nuero-chemical wiring requires.

    Let me illustrate. If you could be exactly reproduced in an identical environment and your other ‘you’ was asked a question, it, just like you, would produce the exact same response. If this scenario were played over and over again, you’d always respond the exact same way. You’d have no choice but to do so. Why? Because, in strict materialism, you are nothing more than the arrangement of chemicals and wiring in your brain which will automatically produce a specific result when faced with specific stimulus. So then, how are you free? And, how can you trust your logical conclusions since they too are merely the result of the changes of chemical states in your physical brain? How do you know you aren’t believing lies about reality, and how would you know you’re not being illogical in your conclusions? After all, it could be your brain wiring that makes you “think” you’re believing truth and also being logical.

    Now, if you say that my reasoning is flawed, then my response is that you are forced to reply that way because of the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain.

    Or perhaps you “believe” you have free will. Maybe you “think” you’re logical. But then again, perhaps you are forced to believe and think that way due to the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain. I have to ask. How do you know that the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain doesn’t just produce a set of processes that force you to think and feel a certain way so that, according to evolutionary theory, your genetics can be passed down to other generations? In this evolutionary, materialistic process, deception could be a reality provided it results in genetic descendants. This way, your atheism is nothing more than a set of chemical states in your brain which forces you into certain beliefs and behaviors so that genes are carried on throughout the centuries.

    Now, dear materialistic atheist, it doesn’t matter how you respond to this video because you were programmed to respond that way given the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain. But don’t feel bad, it isn’t your fault. It really isn’t your free will. It is the illusion of free will produced by the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain that makes you say what you say and think that what you think is actually logical--even though it might not really be right. Don’t agree? Well, we both know why you don’t agree, don’t we?

  5. #525
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    JFish123, why do you continually post comments that were written by other people, without providing any indication the words you post are not your creation?

    Your post #524 is yet another instance of failing to give credit to the author and failing to provide a link to the original. If this were high school English class you would be given a failing grade. This is plagiarism - theft.
    Last edited by Somerville; 04-20-15 at 12:22 PM. Reason: wrong number of post
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Why not ?



    On the basis of civilised societal norms



    Why does it need an explanation ? Its nature doing what it does



    Superstitious mumbo jumbo written by men centuries after the alleged event



    What caused its alleged creator to exist before it ?
    2. Societies Morality
    The Nazis had a morality to exterminate the Jews. Was there morality better or worse? If no God above us, then it's just our opinion, or if a bunch of us get together, it's a societies opinion. But what makes one persons or groups morality better or worse then another's? Is murder, or rape wrong? Of course. And a society that says rape is good is immoral based on the absolute truth that any form of rape is wrong. There's a Moral Law within all if us telling us it is. Something above and beyond ourselves. And a Moral Law has a Moral Law Giver what we call God.

    3. Fine Tuning
    The Factors needed to create a universe with all the dials of all the physical constants is so astronomically impossible, there's no way it would be by mere chance. Hence something turned those dials to the exact placement for life to exist.

  7. #527
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    1. Free Will
    Okay, for those of you who fit this criteria, here’s my question. If matter and energy are all that exist in the universe, then how do you rationally defend the idea that you have free will and can properly use logic?

    The point is this--how can you as a strict materialist really trust your own mind? I mean, if everything in the universe is matter and energy, then that means your physical brain is bound by the laws of physics. Think about this. In a purely materialistic worldview where the human brain is nothing more than the summation of chemicals and brain wiring, how do you justify having both free will and rationality?
    You see, it’s a brain problem.
    How does one chemical state of the brain that is altered by the electrical firing of neurons, which leads to another chemical state in your brain, produce free thought and logical inference?

    If your brain is hardwired and constrained by the physical laws, then it cannot act outside of those laws or outside the limits of the hardwiring. It is, in essence, caged in by the limits of physical properties and cannot break free of them.
    This would mean that whatever stimulus you receive, such as being asked a question, will result in a specific response that must be in accordance with whatever arrangement your brain’s nuero-chemical wiring requires.

    Let me illustrate. If you could be exactly reproduced in an identical environment and your other ‘you’ was asked a question, it, just like you, would produce the exact same response. If this scenario were played over and over again, you’d always respond the exact same way. You’d have no choice but to do so. Why? Because, in strict materialism, you are nothing more than the arrangement of chemicals and wiring in your brain which will automatically produce a specific result when faced with specific stimulus. So then, how are you free? And, how can you trust your logical conclusions since they too are merely the result of the changes of chemical states in your physical brain? How do you know you aren’t believing lies about reality, and how would you know you’re not being illogical in your conclusions? After all, it could be your brain wiring that makes you “think” you’re believing truth and also being logical.

    Now, if you say that my reasoning is flawed, then my response is that you are forced to reply that way because of the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain.

    Or perhaps you “believe” you have free will. Maybe you “think” you’re logical. But then again, perhaps you are forced to believe and think that way due to the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain. I have to ask. How do you know that the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain doesn’t just produce a set of processes that force you to think and feel a certain way so that, according to evolutionary theory, your genetics can be passed down to other generations? In this evolutionary, materialistic process, deception could be a reality provided it results in genetic descendants. This way, your atheism is nothing more than a set of chemical states in your brain which forces you into certain beliefs and behaviors so that genes are carried on throughout the centuries.

    Now, dear materialistic atheist, it doesn’t matter how you respond to this video because you were programmed to respond that way given the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain. But don’t feel bad, it isn’t your fault. It really isn’t your free will. It is the illusion of free will produced by the neuro-chemical wiring in your brain that makes you say what you say and think that what you think is actually logical--even though it might not really be right. Don’t agree? Well, we both know why you don’t agree, don’t we?
    I am not a materialist I am a realist

  8. #528
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Why not ?



    On the basis of civilised societal norms



    Why does it need an explanation ? Its nature doing what it does



    Superstitious mumbo jumbo written by men centuries after the alleged event



    What caused its alleged creator to exist before it ?
    4. Resurrection
    It is a fairly well-established fact that Jesus Christ was publicly executed in Judea in the 1st Century A.D., under Pontius Pilate, by means of crucifixion, at the behest of the Jewish Sanhedrin. The non-Christian historical accounts of Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Maimonides and even the Jewish Sanhedrin corroborate the early Christian eyewitness accounts of these important historical aspects of the death of Jesus Christ.

    As for His resurrection, there are several lines of evidence which make for a compelling case. The late jurisprudential prodigy and international statesman Sir Lionel Luckhoo (of The Guinness Book of World Records fame for his unprecedented 245 consecutive defense murder trial acquittals) epitomized Christian enthusiasm and confidence in the strength of the case for the resurrection when he wrote, “I have spent more than 42 years as a defense trial lawyer appearing in many parts of the world and am still in active practice. I have been fortunate to secure a number of successes in jury trials and I say unequivocally the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”

    5. God
    To answer the question of who made God, we have to ask What is the fundamental reality-what is the one thing everything else comes from? So either the universe doesn't have a cause and is eternal and always existed, or something outside the universe is.
    We know from science, from Einsteins general theory of relativity, thermodynamics (the amount of energy in the universe is running out), the radiation from the Big Bang etc... That the universe itself had a definite beginning in the finite past 13.8 billion years ago.
    And if we rule one out the only doable option is that something outside the universe is eternal. And whatever created the universe must be all powerful, eternal, intelligent, outside of time and space, personal (cause impersonal can't create personal) etc... And these are all the characteristics we give to God.

  9. #529
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    4. Resurrection
    It is a fairly well-established fact that Jesus Christ was publicly executed in Judea in the 1st Century A.D., under Pontius Pilate, by means of crucifixion, at the behest of the Jewish Sanhedrin. The non-Christian historical accounts of Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Maimonides and even the Jewish Sanhedrin corroborate the early Christian eyewitness accounts of these important historical aspects of the death of Jesus Christ.

    As for His resurrection, there are several lines of evidence which make for a compelling case. The late jurisprudential prodigy and international statesman Sir Lionel Luckhoo (of The Guinness Book of World Records fame for his unprecedented 245 consecutive defense murder trial acquittals) epitomized Christian enthusiasm and confidence in the strength of the case for the resurrection when he wrote, “I have spent more than 42 years as a defense trial lawyer appearing in many parts of the world and am still in active practice. I have been fortunate to secure a number of successes in jury trials and I say unequivocally the evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt.”

    5. God
    To answer the question of who made God, we have to ask What is the fundamental reality-what is the one thing everything else comes from? So either the universe doesn't have a cause and is eternal and always existed, or something outside the universe is.
    We know from science, from Einsteins general theory of relativity, thermodynamics (the amount of energy in the universe is running out), the radiation from the Big Bang etc... That the universe itself had a definite beginning in the finite past 13.8 billion years ago.
    And if we rule one out the only doable option is that something outside the universe is eternal. And whatever created the universe must be all powerful, eternal, intelligent, outside of time and space, personal (cause impersonal can't create personal) etc... And these are all the characteristics we give to God.
    Still waiting for this evidence of your god ?

    I'm really not very interested in your long winded and plagiarised mumbo jumbo that simply tries to evade that question.
    Last edited by flogger; 04-20-15 at 12:36 PM.

  10. #530
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Look at the most non-religious countries. I think Australia, the Nordic countries, Canada, France and South Korea? In other words, places with higher qualities of life and stable atmospheres. Oops.
    What's their quality of life when the unbelievers wind up in Hell?
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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