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Thread: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    The argument of fine tuning always goes on and on about the infinitesimal chance that the universe would exist as it is without some creator deity making it perfect just for us. Unfortunately, the argument on the other side seems to be a bit more logical. We and the world/universe that we know couldn't exist in any other form. The natural actions of every teeny, tiny bit of matter have resulted in our existence. So the chance of it all happening is 1 in 1.

    A good guesstimate says that if every star we know of had a habitable planet around it, then there would still be only one billionth of one billionth of one millionth of one percent of the volume of the universe that would be inhabitable. How is that "fine-tuning"? When the vast majority of the universe can't support any life form, that is supposed to make it the best place for us to exist?
    Earth, yes

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueWarrior View Post
    SIGH

    Yes believing something without proof requires faith, your point?

    Why WHY?
    Lets examine the 4 example claims from my post and apply your logic:
    • The moon is made of cheese. Prove that it isn't
    • There is an invisible pink unicorn looking over your shoulder as you type. Prove that there isn't.
    • AGW is happening. Prove that it isn't.
    • You have milk on your face. Prove that you don't.
    • There is a god. Prove that there isn't.


    This is called 'shifting the burden of proof'. You demand refutation of a claim as if it were an established fact. This you cannot do. If every claim, especially the extraordinary claims like my example #2 above, are to be considered fact, then all sorts of nonsense suddenly becomes fact simply because someone claims it.

    And finally what does agnosticism have to do with belief?
    For every claim made, there are 2 possible stances: Belief and non-belief. The default is always non-belief, as I just explained.
    You can believe but not know why you believe. (eg.: you believe because like most religious people you are born into it; you have never really looked into it)
    You can disbelieve and not know why precisely (eg.: the evidence from hinduism, judaism, christianity, islam etc is not compelling)

    In both cases, these people, theist and atheist alike, are agnostic.
    There is no burden of proof, that claim is a nonstarter. Christians are no more obligated to prove that God exists than you are obligated to prove He doesn't.

    Everyone has a right to believe as they choose, and, in a perfect world, we ought to respect each other's beliefs and the right to practice those beliefs in peace.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Those were written long after Jesus died. To attribute EXACT QUOTES to a person is ridiculous...



    I don't care about this argument in the slightest... it is just you grasping.



    ...ridiculous. How am I not accountable for my life?



    God gave us logic. God gave us curiousity. God gave us the drive to seek evidence. God and people like you then scoff when my curiousity leads me to seek evidence through logic?

    No offense but that is totally stupid.
    How Close Were the Authors to the Actual Events?
    The vast majority of the New Testament was written in the second half of the first century. It was complete by A.D. 150. Only a few of the authors were eyewitnesses, but the story can always be traced back to the eyewitnesses.

    Jesus’ ministry was from A.D. 27-30. Noted New Testament scholar, F.F. Bruce, gives strong evidence that the New Testament was completed by A.D. 100.{3} Most writings of the New Testament works were completed twenty to forty years before this. The Gospels are dated traditionally as follows: Mark is believed to be the first gospel written around A.D. 60. Matthew and Luke follow and are written between A.D. 60-70; John is the final gospel, written between A.D. 90-100.

    Is This Close Enough to Consider These Accounts Reliable?
    The answer is yes. The eyewitnesses had to pass on the story before they died, of course. The eyewitnesses would not garble the story in a way that destroys the critical themes and events of the story. When you are seventy, do you forget why you married your spouse? Remember that Jesus was the most important thing that happened to them. They would be more likely to forget their love of their spouses than they would be to forget the words and deeds of their Lord. Now, that is not to say that they never made a mistake. I know that my parents argue about the details of conversations from two months ago, let alone forty years ago. Also, it is possible that they might occasionally disagree about something important from when they were young.

    The situation is similar for second and third generation Christian authors. They finished writing by A.D. 150. Even though they did not see the most important event of their lives directly, it was still the most important event of their lives. It radically changed who and what they were when they learned of Jesus. They then devoted their lives to learning about Jesus and writing about him. They also had the entire Christian community to guide them. Because they were writing very soon after the events, the apostles and the apostles' immediate followers were still around to correct them. Again, it is expected that details may get altered in translation.

    So, the question becomes, how do we know when the account is reliable? There are two requirements. The first is that the event must have been important. People tend to forget things that were not important at the time, so it would not be surprising if there were some mistakes here. All of contradictions in the New Testament that I know about are in the not important category. The second is that the event should be consistent with the person of Jesus from the rest of the New Testament. It is reasonably possible for two people to disagree about an old, but important, event; but if three or four agree, it is highly unlikely that the event is misconstrued in a meaningful way. Even if there is only one source on an event or saying, if that event or saying agrees with the person of Jesus found elsewhere in the New Testament, there is no good reason to disbelieve it.

    In conclusion, the authors were men who indirectly witnessed extraordinary events that dramatically changed their lives and the world. It was the events that made the men, and not the men that made the events. There is no room for these men to be deceived about the events because of their closeness to them and because of how deeply they were affected by them.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Those were written long after Jesus died. To attribute EXACT QUOTES to a person is ridiculous...
    The apostles must have been good at taking shorthand.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    We are supposed to give credit to the author when we post a quote in these forums - JFish123

    It must be JFish123 who wrote the following: "All of contradictions in the New Testament that I know about are in the not important category."

    Not Very Important: Date of Jesus birth, escape to Egypt or return to Nazareth, geneology of Joseph, Jesus - a descendant of David?, are just a few "not very important" contradictions
    Last edited by Somerville; 04-19-15 at 05:48 PM.
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    How Close Were the Authors to the Actual Events?

    In conclusion, the authors were men who indirectly witnessed extraordinary events that dramatically changed their lives and the world. It was the events that made the men, and not the men that made the events. There is no room for these men to be deceived about the events because of their closeness to them and because of how deeply they were affected by them.
    There is no such thing as an "indirect witness". There is direct and indirect evidence though... as well as "witnesses".

    What you are describing as an indirect witness is actually hearsay and hearsay is not admissible in court because it is unreliable.

    The writings about Jesus are circumstantial at best and that brings us back to the matter about there being ZERO evidence that God exists...

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zyzygy View Post
    The apostles must have been good at taking shorthand.
    Another factor that leads to exact quotes being accurate in jeopardy...

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    We are supposed to give credit to the author when we post a quote in these forums - JFish123

    It must be JFish123 who wrote the following: "All of contradictions in the New Testament that I know about are in the not important category."

    Not Very Important: Date of Jesus birth, escape to Egypt or return to Nazareth, geneology of Joseph, Jesus - a descendant of David?, are just a few "not very important" contradictions
    The myth of his birth in Bethlehem was concocted to fit an old prophecy about Jesus being descended from the stem of Jesse, but Joseph was not Jesus's father. Somehow this seems to make sense to Christians.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    We are supposed to give credit to the author when we post a quote in these forums - JFish123

    It must be JFish123 who wrote the following: "All of contradictions in the New Testament that I know about are in the not important category."

    Not Very Important: Date of Jesus birth, escape to Egypt or return to Nazareth, geneology of Joseph, Jesus - a descendant of David?, are just a few "not very important" contradictions
    Gospels don't specify Jesus exact birth date so not contradiction, the genealogies are different because Luke is recording Mary’s genealogy and Matthew is recording Joseph’s. Matthew is following the line of Joseph (Jesus’ legal father), through David’s son Solomon, while Luke is following the line of Mary (Jesus’ blood relative), through David’s son Nathan. Since there was no Greek word for “son-in-law,” Joseph was called the “son of Heli” by marriage to Mary, Heli’s daughter. Through either Mary’s or Joseph’s line, Jesus is a descendant of David and therefore eligible to be the Messiah. There are no contradictions. Any more? Give clear examples like verses please and thank you

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    So here's a few questions for the atheists in the room since you like asking questions hmm?
    1: How can there be free will in a purely materialistic universe?
    2: on what basis can we make moral judgments?
    3: what explains the fine tuning of the universe?
    4: what accounts for the resurrection of Jesus?
    5: What caused the universe to exist?

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