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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    Depends on the religion and what it teaches. Islams founder Muhammad is more like ISIS, where Jesus teaches to Love, Go the extra mile for others, turn the other cheek etc...
    Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Well damn.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Do you really need a list of atheists who have committed mass killings throughout history? Including recent history? You can start with the Communists with over 100 millions deaths, plus the ruination of many more lives.
    -- The point -->

    And here's your head.

    Killing in the name of atheism explicitly is very rare. Killing in the name of religion? Not rare. The communist regimes of Mao and Stalin killed for political reasons, not religious ones. They may have happened to have been atheists (although, I'd argue they thought of themselves as gods), they did not kill to promote atheism. Meanwhile, you have things like the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, September 11th, ISIS, etc. literally killing in the name of religion. 'You don't believe as I do therefore you must die.'
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Well damn.



    -- The point -->

    And here's your head.

    Killing in the name of atheism explicitly is very rare. Killing in the name of religion? Not rare. The communist regimes of Mao and Stalin killed for political reasons, not religious ones. They may have happened to have been atheists (although, I'd argue they thought of themselves as gods), they did not kill to promote atheism. Meanwhile, you have things like the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, September 11th, ISIS, etc. literally killing in the name of religion. 'You don't believe as I do therefore you must die.'
    Many people often claim Religion breeds war. Even though studies like the one conducted and put into the "Encyclopedia of Wars", a study of the past 10,000 years from 8000bc to today, found that only 7% of wars and conflicts are religiously motivated. 3% labeled Christian. So the fact that 93% of wars have no religious affiliation escapes people. Now granted if your religion says to kill people like in Islam that's one thing, and a reason why to separate and look at religions and why there not the same. As the Christian religion, with Jesus is absolutely non violent, so those who use violence are not following Jesus.
    But what about Atheist atrocities?

    It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives. Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.
    Richard Dawkins has attempted to engage in historical revisionism concerning atheist atrocities and Dawkins was shown to be in gross error.
    Karl Marx said "Religion is the opium of the people". Marx also stated: "Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."
    Vladimir Lenin similarly wrote regarding atheism and communism: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion..."
    Although Communism is one of the most well-known cases of atheism's ties to mass murder, the French Revolution and subsequent Reign of Terror, inspired by the works of Diderot, Voltaire, Sade, and Rousseau, managed to commit similar persecutions and exterminations of religious people and promote secularism and militant atheism. Official numbers indicate that 300,000 Frenchmen died during Robespierre's Reign of Terror, 297,000 of which were of middle-class or low-class. Of the amount murdered via the guillotine, only 8% had been of the aristocratic class, with over 30% being from the peasant class.
    So here's a start of all the people killed by atheistic regimes. And There are a plethora of places where you can verify these numbers, if you are so-minded.
    Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered
    Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered
    Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered
    Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered
    Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered
    Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered
    Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered
    Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered
    Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered
    So to say atheism breeds good things or will be like Star Trek in the future under atheism fails to learn from history. To say atheism doesn't breed war....

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Matthew 10:34: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Well damn.



    -- The point -->

    And here's your head.

    Killing in the name of atheism explicitly is very rare. Killing in the name of religion? Not rare. The communist regimes of Mao and Stalin killed for political reasons, not religious ones. They may have happened to have been atheists (although, I'd argue they thought of themselves as gods), they did not kill to promote atheism. Meanwhile, you have things like the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, September 11th, ISIS, etc. literally killing in the name of religion. 'You don't believe as I do therefore you must die.'

    Matthew 10:34–36 describes Jesus telling the disciples that He came not to bring peace to the world, but a sword. Jesus’ sword was never a literal one. In fact, when Peter took up a sword to defend Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus rebuked him and told him to put away his sword, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword” (Matthew 26:52). Why then, did Jesus say, “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.” What kind of sword did Jesus come to bring?

    In Matthew 10:34–36, Jesus said He had come at this time not to bring peace to the earth, but a sword, a weapon which divides and severs. As a result of His visit to the earth, some children would be set against parents and a man’s enemies might be those within his own household. This is because many who choose to follow Christ are hated by their family members. This may be part of the cost of discipleship, for love of family should not be greater than love for the Lord. A true disciple must take up his cross and follow Jesus (Matthew 16:24). He must be willing to face not only family hatred, but also death, like a criminal carrying his cross to his own execution. True followers of Christ must be willing to give up, even to the point of “hating” all that is in our lives, even our own families, if we are to be worthy of Him (Matthew 10:37–39). In so doing, we find our lives in return for having given them up to Jesus Christ.
    A simple look at the context gives the answer. It's interesting how son atheists cut and paste verses they no nothing about to get the u gotcha question. So, Next Question?

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    Many people often claim Religion breeds war. Even though studies like the one conducted and put into the "Encyclopedia of Wars", a study of the past 10,000 years from 8000bc to today, found that only 7% of wars and conflicts are religiously motivated. 3% labeled Christian. So the fact that 93% of wars have no religious affiliation escapes people. Now granted if your religion says to kill people like in Islam that's one thing, and a reason why to separate and look at religions and why there not the same. As the Christian religion, with Jesus is absolutely non violent, so those who use violence are not following Jesus.
    Please link your source for these claims and cite them ?

    But what about Atheist atrocities?
    How many conflicts have been initiated under the banner of promoting atheism ?

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    Please link your source for these claims and cite them ?



    How many conflicts have been initiated under the banner of promoting atheism ?
    An interesting source of truth on the matter is Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature,2 which is an astonishingly low 6.98% of all wars. However, when one subtracts out those waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage is cut by more than half to 3.23%.


    That means that all faiths combined – minus Islam – have caused less than 4% of all of humanity’s wars and violent conflicts. Further, they played no motivating role in the major wars that have resulted in the most loss of life.

    Kind of puts a serious dent into Harris’ argument, doesn’t it?

    The truth is, non-religious motivations and naturalistic philosophies bear the blame for nearly all of humankind’s wars. Lives lost during religious conflict pales in comparison to those experienced during the regimes who wanted nothing to do with the idea of God – something showcased in R. J. Rummel’s work Lethal Politics and Death by Government:

    Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost

    Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
    Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
    Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
    Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
    Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
    Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
    Pol Pot - 2,397,0003
    Rummel says: “Almost 170 million men, women and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any other of a myriad of ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not germs.”4

    The historical evidence is quite clear: Religion is not the #1 cause of war.

    If religion can’t be blamed for most wars and violence, then what is the primary cause? The same thing that triggers all crime, cruelty, loss of life, and other such things. Jesus provides the answer very clearly: “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man” (Mark 7:21–23).

    James (naturally) agrees with Christ when he says: “What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel” (James 4:1–2).

    In the end, the evidence shows that the atheists are quite wrong about the wars they claim to so desperately despise. Sin is the #1 cause of war and violence, not religion, and certainly not Christianity.

    My post a few above this examines in more detail the role of communist regimes and the like are necessarily linked to the atheist worldview and belief, or lack thereof

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    An interesting source of truth on the matter is Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars, which chronicles some 1,763 wars that have been waged over the course of human history. Of those wars, the authors categorize 123 as being religious in nature,2 which is an astonishingly low 6.98% of all wars. However, when one subtracts out those waged in the name of Islam (66), the percentage is cut by more than half to 3.23%.


    That means that all faiths combined – minus Islam – have caused less than 4% of all of humanity’s wars and violent conflicts. Further, they played no motivating role in the major wars that have resulted in the most loss of life.

    Kind of puts a serious dent into Harris’ argument, doesn’t it?

    The truth is, non-religious motivations and naturalistic philosophies bear the blame for nearly all of humankind’s wars. Lives lost during religious conflict pales in comparison to those experienced during the regimes who wanted nothing to do with the idea of God – something showcased in R. J. Rummel’s work Lethal Politics and Death by Government:

    Non-Religious Dictator Lives Lost

    Joseph Stalin - 42,672,000
    Mao Zedong - 37,828,000
    Adolf Hitler - 20,946,000
    Chiang Kai-shek - 10,214,000
    Vladimir Lenin - 4,017,000
    Hideki Tojo - 3,990,000
    Pol Pot - 2,397,0003
    Rummel says: “Almost 170 million men, women and children have been shot, beaten, tortured, knifed, burned, starved, frozen, crushed or worked to death; buried alive, drowned, hung, bombed or killed in any other of a myriad of ways governments have inflicted death on unarmed, helpless citizens and foreigners. The dead could conceivably be nearly 360 million people. It is though our species has been devastated by a modern Black Plague. And indeed it has, but a plague of Power, not germs.”4

    The historical evidence is quite clear: Religion is not the #1 cause of war.

    If religion can’t be blamed for most wars and violence, then what is the primary cause? The same thing that triggers all crime, cruelty, loss of life, and other such things. Jesus provides the answer very clearly: “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man” (Mark 7:21–23).

    James (naturally) agrees with Christ when he says: “What is the source of quarrels and conflicts among you? Is not the source your pleasures that wage war in your members? You lust and do not have; so you commit murder. You are envious and cannot obtain; so you fight and quarrel” (James 4:1–2).

    In the end, the evidence shows that the atheists are quite wrong about the wars they claim to so desperately despise. Sin is the #1 cause of war and violence, not religion, and certainly not Christianity.

    My post a few above this examines in more detail the role of communist regimes and the like are necessarily linked to the atheist worldview and belief, or lack thereof
    Non-religious doesnt equate atheism. To assert such a thing would be straight up lying.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Of course non religious doesn't mean these wars were atheist in nature. The first part was to show religion doesn't cause most wars as some people suggest like you see on the news or what have you. The second part, the post a few above clarifies that communism has strong ties to atheism. In fact I'll repost those arguements here...
    It is estimated that in the past 100 years, governments under the banner of atheistic communism have caused the death of somewhere between 40,472,000 to 259,432,000 human lives. Dr. R. J. Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, is the scholar who first coined the term democide (death by government). Dr. R. J. Rummel's mid estimate regarding the loss of life due to communism is that communism caused the death of approximately 110,286,000 people between 1917 and 1987.
    Richard Dawkins has attempted to engage in historical revisionism concerning atheist atrocities and Dawkins was shown to be in gross error.
    Karl Marx said "Religion is the opium of the people". Marx also stated: "Communism begins from the outset with atheism; but atheism is at first far from being communism; indeed, that atheism is still mostly an abstraction."
    Vladimir Lenin similarly wrote regarding atheism and communism: "A Marxist must be a materialist, i. e., an enemy of religion, but a dialectical materialist, i. e., one who treats the struggle against religion..."
    Although Communism is one of the most well-known cases of atheism's ties to mass murder, the French Revolution and subsequent Reign of Terror, inspired by the works of Diderot, Voltaire, Sade, and Rousseau, managed to commit similar persecutions and exterminations of religious people and promote secularism and militant atheism. Official numbers indicate that 300,000 Frenchmen died during Robespierre's Reign of Terror, 297,000 of which were of middle-class or low-class. Of the amount murdered via the guillotine, only 8% had been of the aristocratic class, with over 30% being from the peasant class.
    So here's a start of all the people killed by atheistic regimes. And There are a plethora of places where you can verify these numbers, if you are so-minded.
    Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered
    Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered
    Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered
    Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered
    Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered
    Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered
    Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered
    Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered
    Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered
    So to say atheism breeds good things or will be like Star Trek in the future under atheism fails to learn from history.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    My post a few above this examines in more detail the role of communist regimes and the like are necessarily linked to the atheist worldview and belief, or lack thereof
    I thought so. Your study is grossly distorted by the fact that the 20th century saw the first major wars of mass industrialisation where death was dispensed far more efficiently and with vastly superior weaponry than in earlier centuries. Obviously the number of lives lost in such wars disproportionately reflect this historically. These wars too were not conducted under the banner of spreading or indoctrnating atheism whereas religion is capable of driving people to such dangerous folly that faith seems to me to qualify as a kind of mental illness. Faith is the great cop out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of ,even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. Atheism is not.

    I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakeable truth through the power of institutions and the passage of time. Atheism is not. I often wonder how much sooner things like the industrial revolution might have happened were it not for religion retarding our progress towards it with its fear and superstition
    Last edited by flogger; 04-16-15 at 04:09 PM.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    And here's your head. Killing in the name of atheism explicitly is very rare. Killing in the name of religion? Not rare. The communist regimes of Mao and Stalin killed for political reasons, not religious ones. They may have happened to have been atheists (although, I'd argue they thought of themselves as gods), they did not kill to promote atheism. Meanwhile, you have things like the Salem Witch Trials, the Crusades, September 11th, ISIS, etc. literally killing in the name of religion. 'You don't believe as I do therefore you must die.'
    In fact among the first thing the Communists did when gaining power was abolish or discourage the Church. You've seen many posters state what a country with no moral guidance may do and Communists (supported by leftists in all the democracies) were certainly the worst offenders of the last century, though they had competition from others. Those countries with a strong Christian influence certainly did less harm, and more good, than any other religious, or non-religious, group. Atheism and communism - Conservapedia

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by flogger View Post
    I thought so. Your study is grossly distorted by the fact that the 20th century saw the first major wars of mass industrialisation where death was dispensed far more efficiently and with vastly superior weaponry than in earlier centuries. Obviously the number of lives lost in such wars disproportionately reflect this historically. These wars too were not conducted under the banner of spreading or indoctrnating atheism whereas religion is capable of driving people to such dangerous folly that faith seems to me to qualify as a kind of mental illness. Faith is the great cop out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of ,even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. Atheism is not.

    I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world. Religion is about turning untested belief into unshakeable truth through the power of institutions and the passage of time. Atheism is not. I often wonder how much sooner things like the industrial revolution might have happened were it not for religion retarding our progress towards it with its fear and superstition
    Is it your understanding that people didn't have faith in Communism? Or Nazism, Fascism or Obama for that matter.

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