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Thread: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

  1. #321
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I think you're right about that. The Biblical Jesus, whether or not I believe him to be son of God, was all about that. I just wonder, when was the last time ANY Christian church looked to a hooker to go preach the gospel?
    I sometimes attend an inner city church to hear a recovered alcoholic woman preach.

    I am a recovered alcoholic/addict who is sometimes, in moments of delusion am asked to speak. There is a core and I think a healthy one that is returning to the concept of the "Ragamuffin Gospels" pointing out that Jesus hung out with the dregs of society, half his desciples were virtual outcasts, "tax collector" meant fraud, his "fishers of men" were day laborers, only one owned a boat. Peter was a screw up who had never amounted to anything, and of course Mary Magdalene was said to have been a prostitute, but more likely she was worse, an adulterer.

    The middle ages interpretation of the Bible through Guttenberg amplified the Roman interpretation where one line of Jesus on the cross to James "tend to our mother" does not mean Mary is the mother of all men as taught by Romans who in their paganism worshiped the idea of a virgin birth as a sign of "immaculata" The teachings of a possibly syphylitic Paul were further mis-interpreted as directed at the whole church, when his writings were letters to specific churches in response to specific issues facing them, including churches in Greece where homosexuality was in open practice and accepted in society.

    The whole business ignored cultural practices of the day, like the woman at the well. She is there at mid day the hottest part of the day because she is a whore - "woman you have five husbands" and is banned from being there with "clean women". His engaging her could have meant him being stoned.

    So we have countless examples of him associating with the scum of "society" but people whose hearts he knew. One of the reasons he so outraged the religious law makers of the day was that he associated with people who might likely be banned from temple any given week.

    "it is not the healthy who need a doctor."

    I do not follow Jesus as God because I am pure, but because I an a sinner, will always be a sinner in this life and need Him to teach me how not to be
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  2. #322
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    I sometimes attend an inner city church to hear a recovered alcoholic woman preach.

    I am a recovered alcoholic/addict who is sometimes, in moments of delusion am asked to speak. There is a core and I think a healthy one that is returning to the concept of the "Ragamuffin Gospels" pointing out that Jesus hung out with the dregs of society, half his desciples were virtual outcasts, "tax collector" meant fraud, his "fishers of men" were day laborers, only one owned a boat. Peter was a screw up who had never amounted to anything, and of course Mary Magdalene was said to have been a prostitute, but more likely she was worse, an adulterer.

    The middle ages interpretation of the Bible through Guttenberg amplified the Roman interpretation where one line of Jesus on the cross to James "tend to our mother" does not mean Mary is the mother of all men as taught by Romans who in their paganism worshiped the idea of a virgin birth as a sign of "immaculata" ...

    ...The whole business ignored cultural practices of the day, like the woman at the well. She is there at mid day the hottest part of the day because she is a whore - "woman you have five husbands" and is banned from being there with "clean women". His engaging her could have meant him being stoned.

    So we have countless examples of him associating with the scum of "society" but people whose hearts he knew. One of the reasons he so outraged the religious law makers of the day was that he associated with people who might likely be banned from temple any given week.

    "it is not the healthy who need a doctor."

    I do not follow Jesus as God because I am pure, but because I an a sinner, will always be a sinner in this life and need Him to teach me how not to be
    I don't doubt the sincerity of your beliefs for a second.
    The teachings of a possibly syphylitic Paul were further mis-interpreted as directed at the whole church, when his writings were letters to specific churches in response to specific issues facing them, including churches in Greece where homosexuality was in open practice and accepted in society.
    I'm afraid that doesn't really redeem Paul one iota in my book, but interesting point, and one that many mainstream traditionalists would probably reject, no?
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  3. #323
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post

    I do not follow Jesus as God because I am pure, but because I an a sinner, will always be a sinner in this life and need Him to teach me how not to be
    According to the gospel you cannot ever be living on Earth and not be a sinner.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I don't doubt the sincerity of your beliefs for a second.
    I'm afraid that doesn't really redeem Paul one iota in my book, but interesting point, and one that many mainstream traditionalists would probably reject, no?
    What is "mainstream"?

    I would not know of it had I not monitored some theology classes where it is taught as one possible answer to Paul's illness he refers to, another is blindness and he dictated the letters.

    And that is the real problem. We know so few hard facts. There is no way to prove anything.

    "Mainstream" Christianity in the US appears to be Revelation based, a God of thunder and punishment, which to me is dangerous as there are hundreds of interpretations of John's dream. Even the final words about not changing one word is in dispute. I call this "knowing about the Bible" as opposed to "knowing God."

    We also have to realize that Paul was in dispute with the church of the day, based in Jerusalem, and some suggest there is skulldugery in the fact there are no letters to the Church in Jerusalem from which he was getting money to finance his expeditions.

    I do not seek to redeem anything of Paul or the disciples [he is not one] and I believe that as a Roman, took the church in the absolutely wrong direction and brought it under the control of the Roman Empire. I do not believe for one second that we were to be a church of priests and hierarchy, that by taking the church to Rome they mutated the faith to parallel the empire, complete with a ceasar/pope compelete with patron saints who parallel Romes famous and powerful pagans, who worshiped minor gods representing specific aspects of life. Helios became St Jude.

    Under the Romans the church became an authority in people's lives, the exact thing Jesus fought against the Pharisees of the day with word's like "you pit of vipers!" like **** off today, or "you hypocrites". He allowed only one title of address "Raboni" or teacher which we are all called to be.
    Last edited by Fearandloathing; 04-15-15 at 03:34 PM.
    "Small people talk about people, average people talk about events, great people talk about ideas" Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    I think there is no question that Jesus the human being existed. there is nothing wrong with admitting that no matter what you think of him being the messiah. I think there is just as much proof that he existed as there is that Alexander the Great or Aristotle existed. in order to believe there was some conspiracy to "create" Jesus you would have to believe something along the lines of a 9/11 conspiracy theory. there are too many impossibilities to consider. If the disciples conspired together why wouldn't all of their historical accounts be exactly the same instead of having sometimes huge differences in their stories about Jesus. it just doesn't make sense from the start.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JoeTrumps View Post
    I think there is no question that Jesus the human being existed. there is nothing wrong with admitting that no matter what you think of him being the messiah. I think there is just as much proof that he existed as there is that Alexander the Great or Aristotle existed. in order to believe there was some conspiracy to "create" Jesus you would have to believe something along the lines of a 9/11 conspiracy theory. there are too many impossibilities to consider. If the disciples conspired together why wouldn't all of their historical accounts be exactly the same instead of having sometimes huge differences in their stories about Jesus. it just doesn't make sense from the start.
    Wow, now that's a new twist, eyewitness accounts differing being offered up as proof!! And what "evidence" outside of the bible is there that he existed. Two historians that would have been his contemporaries, Philo of Alexandria and Josephus failed to mention a guy healing the sick, raising the dead, and feeding throngs with a couple fish and a few loaves of bread. (Of course the "Complete Works of Josephus" have an after thought paragraph that mention him quite in passing, lol. )
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    The Bible has more than a few such impositions. The death penalty for cursing a parent, taking the Lord's name in vain, not crying out loudly enough while being raped, or even not being a virgin on your wedding night (Those last two apply women only.) are some examples. Remember the guy who picked up sticks on the Sabbath? Death..... Look to the beam in your own eye.
    Too long to write so I'll be short as possible with lout too much theology... New covenant. When the religious people brought a woman caught commiting adultery they wanted to stone her. Jesus answered them and they left, and told her he doesn't condemn her and to Go sin no more. Jesus healed on the sabbath and that made them want to kill him even more. And it's interesting, Funny how people use scripture when convenient to them, then chuck it out for the rest of there lives.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Wow, now that's a new twist, eyewitness accounts differing being offered up as proof!! And what "evidence" outside of the bible is there that he existed. Two historians that would have been his contemporaries, Philo of Alexandria and Josephus failed to mention a guy healing the sick, raising the dead, and feeding throngs with a couple fish and a few loaves of bread. (Of course the "Complete Works of Josephus" have an after thought paragraph that mention him quite in passing, lol. )
    There's plenty non biblical sources. Here are just a few...
    Thallus (52AD)
    Thallus is perhaps the earliest secular writer to mention Jesus and he is so ancient his writings tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:
    “On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.”

    Mara Bar-Serapion (70AD)
    Sometime after 70AD, a Syrian philosopher named Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to encourage his son, compared the life and persecution of Jesus with that of other philosophers who were persecuted for their ideas. The fact Jesus is known to be a real person with this kind of influence is important. Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as the “Wise King”:
    “What benefit did the Athenians obtain by putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as judgment for their crime. Or, the people of Samos for burning Pythagoras? In one moment their country was covered with sand. Or the Jews by murdering their wise king?…After that their kingdom was abolished. God rightly avenged these men…The wise king…Lived on in the teachings he enacted.”

    Phlegon (80-140AD)
    Phlegon wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
    “Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.”
    Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):
    “Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to his predictions."
    “And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place …"
    “Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.”

    Pliny the Younger (61-113AD)
    Early Christians were also described in early, non-Christian history. Pliny the Younger, in a letter to the Roman emperor Trajan, describes the lifestyles of early Christians:
    “They (the Christians) were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food—but food of an ordinary and innocent kind.”

    Suetonius (69-140AD)
    Suetonius was a Roman historian and annalist of the Imperial House under the Emperor Hadrian. His writings about Christians describe their treatment under the Emperor Claudius (41-54AD):
    “Because the Jews at Rome caused constant disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus (Christ), he (Claudius) expelled them from the city (Rome).” (Life of Claudius, 25:4)
    This expulsion took place in 49AD, and in another work, Suetonius wrote about the fire which destroyed Rome in 64 A.D. under the reign of Nero. Nero blamed the Christians for this fire and he punished Christians severely as a result:
    “Nero inflicted punishment on the Christians, a sect given to a new and mischievous religious belief.” (Lives of the Caesars, 26.2)

    And on and on...

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    It doesn't matter whose "perspective" it is. Cutting peoples hands off for theft, permission to beat women, killing people for changing religion, is wrong and crazy universally, regardless of how some people may feel about it.
    Apparently not because they don't see it wrong or crazy where it is practiced. It's sad how incapable you are of thinking critically or rationally, all you're doing is saying "it makes me feel bad so it's wrong, waaaaah!"
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by JFish123 View Post
    Too long to write so I'll be short as possible with lout too much theology... New covenant. When the religious people brought a woman caught commiting adultery they wanted to stone her. Jesus answered them and they left, and told her he doesn't condemn her and to Go sin no more. Jesus healed on the sabbath and that made them want to kill him even more. And it's interesting, Funny how people use scripture when convenient to them, then chuck it out for the rest of there lives.
    What you sight are the very reasons that the Jews, who very much believe in messiah, are waiting for his appearance yet, reject Jesus as him. They know that messiah will be without sin, otherwise, Torah observant. Ruling out Jesus was quite easy. As to the woman brought to him, having been accused of adultery, he demonstrated he didn't know everything about the law, which requires that both parties are to be brought forth. He never asked where the man was. Furthermore, the law never stipulated that those stoning a person caught in such sin, must themselves be without sin.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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