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Thread: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

  1. #271
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    It is still debate whether or not a single man named John -- and this is the same 'beloved' apostle John -- wrote the gospels. And yes, that's a bit much. There are more than a few critical scholars who doubt the apostle John ≠ the evangelist John. You're also neglecting the fact that according to your link the gospel of John was written somewhere in 87 AD (some people think earlier and some think later). That is still 50+ years after Jesus' supposed death. When I write my lab notebooks and protocols, I don't even wait days. I do it as it happens.
    Well first, if you've ever read the Gospel of John, it's a magnificent work, and certainly not indicative of someone who might have lost his mental faculties. Secondly, you don't know that it was written when John was old. He may have held on to it for decades, perhaps updating a verse here and there, until God finally said to release it. And third, you seem to ignore God's inspiration:

    "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." - John 14:26

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    No, it's called skepticism. Try it sometime.
    Back at you. When you can come up with some convincing argument to show me that the resurrection never happened, they you will have something to hang your hat on.

    I've been looking at the arguments of skeptics for ages and never once have they been able to falsify the resurrection. It's the absolute crux of Christianity. You want to win your case, then bust the resurrection. If you can't then you've lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post

    You're saying the Gospels (and, presumably, the Bible as a whole) is true. Essentially, you're clutching at straws and I'm telling you have nothing to hold on to.
    Au contraire. In my hands I have four independent and historical Gospels and over two dozen New Testament works, all of which were separate and - as of the first century - non-canonical compositions. And I also have non-biblical sources which reference New Testament individuals, etc.

    In your hands you have nothing but denial.

    The preponderance of the evidence favors my beliefs, not yours.
    Last edited by Logicman; 04-14-15 at 12:53 PM.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Of course all that assumes they never previously reduced to writing (in their own records) that which transpired, or they all developed amnesia, or whatever.

    They also had a helper - the Holy Spirit.

    "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." - John 14:26

    And now would be the time for skeptics to trot out their anti-supernatural bias!
    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    I don't recall saying that. I've said I base my beliefs on the preponderance of the evidence.



    I'll answer that, but do understand that to falsify Christianity you'll need to show the resurrection never happened, and all four Gospels and various epistles confirm it.

    As for Matthew's generations of Jesus, and your "only thirteen generations," you may have missed something:

    https://mitchchase.wordpress.com/201...atthew-112-16/
    LOL, Now I have to falsify Christianity? You've moved the goalposts so far you should be a groundskeeper.

    You've repeatedly made the claim that the Gospels were supernaturally inspired so we can trust them.. And you've continually cited John 14:26 as a reason. That's a circular argument. You cannot rationally continue to claim that the Gospels are true because they're internally consistent, and then deny that you're using the Gospels to prove themselves. Also, doing this while pretending to be some sort of wizened sage and that everyone else is beneath your level of understanding isn't a good tactic.

    But I hope you enjoy your day.

  3. #273
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    LOL, Now I have to falsify Christianity? You've moved the goalposts so far you should be a groundskeeper.

    You've repeatedly made the claim that the Gospels were supernaturally inspired so we can trust them.. And you've continually cited John 14:26 as a reason. That's a circular argument. You cannot rationally continue to claim that the Gospels are true because they're internally consistent, and then deny that you're using the Gospels to prove themselves. Also, doing this while pretending to be some sort of wizened sage and that everyone else is beneath your level of understanding isn't a good tactic.
    What you have missed in all this is that I just don't automatically believe they were divinely inspired - I researched them and studied them for decades. I looked at the scores of Messianic fulfillments and their accuracy at a rate far, far greater than chance (the signature of God), and see the divine inspiration of God in them. In short, I've looked at the evidence that backs up what the Bible says, and it's extremely impressive. The evidence, Mithros. That's why I believe they were divinely inspired; not just because the Bible says so. That's what you're missing. And that's why I point you in that direction, so you can see it too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithros View Post
    But I hope you enjoy your day.
    You too. Still recommend that evidence book and others like it so you can see what you're missing.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    What you have missed in all this is that I just don't automatically believe they were divinely inspired - I researched them and studied them for decades. I looked at the scores of Messianic fulfillments and their accuracy at a rate far, far greater than chance (the signature of God), and see the divine inspiration of God in them. In short, I've looked at the evidence that backs up what the Bible says, and it's extremely impressive. The evidence, Mithros. That's why I believe they were divinely inspired; not just because the Bible says so. That's what you're missing. And that's why I point you in that direction, so you can see it too.



    You too. Still recommend that evidence book and others like it so you can see what you're missing.
    These debates are frequent and can go on forever but ultimately it comes down to whether a person has been touched by Jesus, or God, or has not. Those who have never been touched will never get it.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    These debates are frequent and can go on forever but ultimately it comes down to whether a person has been touched by Jesus, or God, or has not. Those who have never been touched will never get it.
    Does that work the same for those who have been touched by any other god?

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
    Does that work the same for those who have been touched by any other god?
    You'd have to ask them, but I suspect so.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Well first, if you've ever read the Gospel of John, it's a magnificent work, and certainly not indicative of someone who might have lost his mental faculties. Secondly, you don't know that it was written when John was old. He may have held on to it for decades, perhaps updating a verse here and there, until God finally said to release it. And third, you seem to ignore God's inspiration:

    "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." - John 14:26
    There is literally so much wrong up here, I am almost overwhelmed on where to begin. I don't care that it's a magnificent work. Have you ever read The Shining? It's magnificent too. Could he have lost his mental faculties? Sure. Could it also be someone entirely different? Sure. And God's inspiration? Of which there is evidence...? Kesey wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest on acid. Would you call that inspiration?

    Back at you. When you can come up with some convincing argument to show me that the resurrection never happened, they you will have something to hang your hat on.

    I've been looking at the arguments of skeptics for ages and never once have they been able to falsify the resurrection. It's the absolute crux of Christianity. You want to win your case, then bust the resurrection. If you can't then you've lost.
    Lol. Also known as an argument from ignorance and shifting the burden of proof. Niceeeeee.

    Au contraire. In my hands I have four independent and historical Gospels and over two dozen New Testament works, all of which were separate and - as of the first century - non-canonical compositions. And I also have non-biblical sources which reference New Testament individuals, etc.

    In your hands you have nothing but denial.

    The preponderance of the evidence favors my beliefs, not yours.
    How do you know they're independent? You don't think it's strange that Jesus' language was Aramaic but the books were written in Greek? That doesn't strike you as odd? We've discussed this before, just because the person is referenced, that doesn't support the claim of them being supernatural. Try again. Take, for example, a parable of Mike. Mike is a rancher in Wyoming. Mike says he has been abducted by aliens. People write Mike's story down. Sure, we may not dispute Mike lives in Wyoming, that doesn't really matter. But was Mike abducted by aliens? I say no, you would (in this analogy) be saying yes.

    For instance, the Gospel of John is still heavily disputed and doesn't seem to be the disciple of Jesus. Have you ever read Frank Cross' 'The Gospel of John?'

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    These debates are frequent and can go on forever but ultimately it comes down to whether a person has been touched by Jesus, or God, or has not. Those who have never been touched will never get it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tim the plumber View Post
    Does that work the same for those who have been touched by any other god?
    Or a priest.
    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    I've never denied my own hackish tendencies
    Quote Originally Posted by Pin dÁr View Post
    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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  8. #278
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    There is literally so much wrong up here, I am almost overwhelmed on where to begin. I don't care that it's a magnificent work. Have you ever read The Shining? It's magnificent too. Could he have lost his mental faculties? Sure. Could it also be someone entirely different? Sure. And God's inspiration? Of which there is evidence...? Kesey wrote One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest on acid. Would you call that inspiration?
    How do you know they're independent?
    You don't think it's strange that Jesus' language was Aramaic but the books were written in Greek? That doesn't strike you as odd? We've discussed this before, just because the person is referenced, that doesn't support the claim of them being supernatural. Try again. Take, for example, a parable of Mike. Mike is a rancher in Wyoming. Mike says he has been abducted by aliens. People write Mike's story down. Sure, we may not dispute Mike lives in Wyoming, that doesn't really matter. But was Mike abducted by aliens? I say no, you would (in this analogy) be saying yes.

    For instance, the Gospel of John is still heavily disputed and doesn't seem to be the disciple of Jesus. Have you ever read Frank Cross' 'The Gospel of John?'

    Or a priest.
    They're independent because they were written by different people at different times in the 1st century and at different places.

    As for trying to discredit the authorship of the Gospel of John, so far you've got nothing but conjecture. Opposed to you is the following external and internal evidences for the Apostle John as author of his Gospel.

    CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Gospel of Saint John

    The preponderance of the evidence is against you. In a court of law the weight of the evidence would tilt strongly in my favor.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What if this ends up proving he did?
    Then that blows Christianity completely out of the water because Christian tradition says Jesus rose from the dead and never had a family.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Invisible View Post
    There is no attack on Christianity, especially in the West. To say so is delusional.
    The only "attack" is on Christian superiority and control, which Christianity doesn't deserve in the first place. Modern Christianity is programmed to scream discrimination the second anyone looks at them funny.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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