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Thread: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

  1. #251
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    Even the three days is a stretch, Friday evening till Sunday morning is barely 36 hours.
    Well even his death / resurrection aren't consistent across the gospels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    In Christianity there's always the leading of the Holy Spirit about what to write. Whether or not they followed the Holy Spirit on that only they and God knows.
    Aka no one. So then you concede they weren't eyewitnesses?

    What - you're going to get the truth from an atheist?
    From a scientist? Yes. Be he religious or not (but we know where the odds lie).

    A careful study of the independently recorded events gives rise to a logical conclusion. And you can read about that in this link. There's 12 basic, historical facts that over 1,400 scholars (skeptic and non-skeptic) agree on.

    12 Historical Facts - Gary Habermas

    Also, the fact is there's a number of non-biblical sources that wrote about Jesus, and they confirm a lot of interesting details. Many of these are covered in scholar Gary Habermas' book, "The Historical Jesus." Recommend you read it. Available on Amazon.
    Those aren't 12 'facts.' Some may be, some may not. 'The resurrection is the most important message' -- literally that is an opinion.

    The vast majority of history is hearsay, goldsmith. Are you prepared to be consistent and rip out major sections of collegiate history books?
    Yes and no. People study the history of Roman and Greek mythology, for instance. I'd lump it in with them.

    You didn't read the Harmony of the Resurrection link I provided earlier, did you? And don't miss the forest for the trees. They ALL confirm the resurrection!
    Yes, but there's not harmony. There may be some overlap, but not harmony.

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    That is correct. Both Mark and Matthew were written before Luke/Acts, and the earliest Epistles also discuss Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.
    Ugh.

    That's interesting. You want something that would almost certainly have to be faked: the transportation of modern scientific methodologies and capabilities two millenia backwards in time.
    Not for historical purpose. For scientific purposes. We know the natural order. If you're going to claim this natural order was interrupted, you better supply evidence for the claim.

    By that standard, the vast majority of history must be chucked.
    Caution everyone. The floor is wet. Watch out for that slippery slope.

    This is a common misconception. We do not believe in God because the Bible told us to. We believe in the Bible because God told us to.
    Faith is faith. It's turtles all the way down.

    Naturally. You write the accounts down as the generation who can attest to it directly dies so that their accounts can be preserved. Prior to that, we have the Epistles, the expository material of that early generation. Which is precisely what you would expect.
    What would I expect? A laboratory notebook. You write it down as it happens, not 10+ years later (again, even granting a premise Logic argued).

    Both John and Mark state that it was Mary. Matthew and Luke do not say, but simply record other interactions. Which is precisely what you would expect.
    Would you like to lie again? Matthew says both Marys. John and Mark say Mary Magdalene. Luke says Cleopas. Corinthians say Cephas (I wonder if they meant Cephus, maybe we should ask him).

    yes. Jesus was whipped, flogged, starved, dehydrated, crucified, and then stabbed through the lungs.... and then upon being placed in a sealed cave with zero medical attention or water, revived, survived three days (again, massive blood loss, massive trauma, hands and feet split, no food, no water), tossed a giant stone designed to require multiple men to move out of the way, ninja-fought off a company of Roman soldiers, and escaped.

    Thanks. - It's been a long day, and that was a good chuckle.
    I dunno man. If they published that, it'd be a better story. I liked the dragons, though.
    Last edited by zgoldsmith23; 04-13-15 at 10:55 AM.
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    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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  2. #252
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I always thought him having a twin would explain the resurrection.
    That is entirely possible. Some people think that it could have been Thomas on the cross. But another Thomas (the doubting one) was able to reach into Jesus' spear wound when he returned to talk to the disciples. That would negate having the twin brother involved.
    Sent from my TVC 15, using squelchalot.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Well even his death / resurrection aren't consistent across the gospels.
    If you look at the Gospel accounts of that as being complementary, instead of "either/or," then I think your objections disappear.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post

    So then you concede they weren't eyewitnesses?
    The New Testament – Eyewitness Accounts and Testimony « The Righter Report

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    What would I expect? A laboratory notebook. You write it down as it happens, not 10+ years later (again, even granting a premise Logic argued).
    Once again, if that's your criteria you'll have an extremely thin history book. Besides, the apostles were busy running for their lives back then to keep from getting murdered.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Would you like to lie again? Matthew says both Marys. John and Mark say Mary Magdalene. Luke says Cleopas. Corinthians say Cephas (I wonder if they meant Cephus, maybe we should ask him).
    The Harmony of the Resurrection analysis buries that objection. Again, it's not "either/or" but complementary.

    Greenleaf’s Harmony of the Resurrection Accounts
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    If you look at the Gospel accounts of that as being complementary, instead of "either/or," then I think your objections disappear.
    In other words, if I ditch skepticism in lieu of blind faith. Sorry, no.

    How are they eyewitnesses when they arguably weren't even alive when Jesus was around? And, if they were, they would've been children.



    Once again, if that's your criteria you'll have an extremely thin history book. Besides, the apostles were busy running for their lives back then to keep from getting murdered.
    Not really. I have a 'history' book that goes back millions of years. It's called the fossil record. Well, they didn't appear to do a very good job.

    The Harmony of the Resurrection analysis buries that objection. Again, it's not "either/or" but complementary.

    Greenleaf’s Harmony of the Resurrection Accounts
    You keep saying that as if stating is makes it true. I hate to tell you, it doesn't. Something either happened or it did not. There's no 'well it's complimentary.'
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    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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  5. #255
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    The 12 Facts about Jesus, according to Gary Habermas

    1. Jesus died by crucifixion.
    2. He was buried.
    3. His death caused the disciples to despair and lose hope.
    4. The tomb was empty (the most contested).
    5. The disciples had experiences which they believed were literal appearances of the risen Jesus (the most important proof).
    6. The disciples were transformed from doubters to bold proclaimers.
    7. The resurrection was the central message.
    8. They preached the message of Jesus’ resurrection in Jerusalem.
    9. The Church was born and grew.
    10. Orthodox Jews who believed in Christ made Sunday their primary day of worship.
    11. James was converted to the faith when he saw the resurrected Jesus (James was a family skeptic).
    12. Paul was converted to the faith (Paul was an outsider skeptic).
    Professor Habermas is an evangelical True Believer who refuses to acknowledge any information or data that contradicts his religious faith. He would lose his job if he did admit the 'evidence' he claims is mere supposition.

    1. We don't know that it happened, Christians believe the crucifixion took place but there is no physical evidence.
    2. Playing with words here but -- being placed in a tomb is entombment, dropped into a hole in the ground and covered with dirt is being buried. Again, no physical evidence.
    3. If Jesus was executed, yeah, his disciples were probably be a bit upset. Obvious statement as it can be compared with historically verified scenarios up to the present day
    4. An empty tomb - again, only according to a religious text in which the claim is a central tenet of the belief
    5. We don't KNOW this as the accounts were written years after the supposed event.
    6. Funny how no other writers of the period, the fourth and fifth decades of the First Century mention these loud proclamations of faith
    7. Yes, resurrection was central to the new faith - in the Second Century. Paul's epistles mention resurrection in only a couple, thought to be later additions, passages
    8. When history does begin to mention this new religious faith, it seemed to be growing in cities away from Jerusalem where Orthodox Judaism still controlled social mores
    9. Duh
    10. Highly doubtful that many Orthodox Jews, the Pharisees and Sadducees joined the new faith
    11. James - again, only according to the holy text
    12. Paul is seen by some scholars as being the true creator of Christianity
    “And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.”
    ~ James Madison, letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    In other words, if I ditch skepticism in lieu of blind faith. Sorry, no.
    So you're sticking to the idea that written or eyewitness accounts cannot possibly be complementary? That's not skepticism, that's personal bias and tunnel vision.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post

    How are they eyewitnesses when they arguably weren't even alive when Jesus was around? And, if they were, they would've been children.
    I don't know how you figure they weren't alive yet. It's probably because you late-date the Gospels and aren't up-to-date on Biblical scholarship.

    You might want to update your timelines.

    A Chronological Order of The New Testament Books

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Not really. I have a 'history' book that goes back millions of years. It's called the fossil record. Well, they didn't appear to do a very good job.
    Funny you bring that up because there's even splits in thinking in the scientific community as to whether the Cambrian explosion was due to punctuated equilibrium / spontaneous generation, or gradualism.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    There's no 'well it's complimentary.'
    Nonsense. The Harmony of the Resurrection analysis refutes that.
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Somerville View Post
    The 12 Facts about Jesus, according to Gary Habermas

    Professor Habermas is an evangelical True Believer who refuses to acknowledge any information or data that contradicts his religious faith. He would lose his job if he did admit the 'evidence' he claims is mere supposition.

    We don't know that it happened, Christians believe the crucifixion took place but there is no physical evidence.
    "no physical evidence..." Like the Romans were going to save everything in a museum just for people like you.

    LOL. I quit reading further after seeing that hilarious, sophomoric response.

    I also love your "we" comments, like you have a vast audience in your back pocket. It reminds me of the discredited liberal John Shelby Spong:

    His writings are littered with the words: ‘I know of no biblical scholar [who disagrees with me]’, e.g. ‘No biblical scholar’ thinks that Adam was a historical figure’ (RBF p. 104), ‘I know of no one in the ranks of biblical scholarship’ who thinks that John wrote the Fourth Gospel (RBF p. 193), ‘I know of no reputable biblical scholar who takes these [Virgin] birth narratives literally’ (RBF p. 215).

    Spong’s professed ignorance is not surprising if one chooses to remain ignorant and only ever reads one side of the case.

    What's Wrong With Bishop Spong? - creation.com
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

  8. #258
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    So you're sticking to the idea that written or eyewitness accounts cannot possibly be complementary? That's not skepticism, that's personal bias and tunnel vision.
    No, I'm sticking to the idea that something either happens or it doesn't. Either Jesus was resurrected or he wasn't. It's a dodge to say 'well, they still tell the same story, just different ways.'

    I don't know how you figure they weren't alive yet. It's probably because you late-date the Gospels and aren't up-to-date on Biblical scholarship.

    You might want to update your timelines.
    I'm using the dates from the link you previously posted. Between 61 - 89 (?) A.D., I believe. Average life expectancy was 29 years old at this time.

    Funny you bring that up because there's even splits in thinking in the scientific community as to whether the Cambrian explosion was due to punctuated equilibrium / spontaneous generation, or gradualism.
    There's so much wrong with the above but evolution isn't really part of this debate. But, anyways, you know what they all have in common? There's agreement that it happened.

    Nonsense. The Harmony of the Resurrection analysis refutes that.
    Using circular logic it sure does. Otherwise, not quite, it does not.
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  9. #259
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    No, I'm sticking to the idea that something either happens or it doesn't. Either Jesus was resurrected or he wasn't. It's a dodge to say 'well, they still tell the same story, just different ways.'
    Well, all four Gospels and various epistles all confirm the resurrection. On the other side of the ledger are ZERO first century writings that it didn't happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post

    I'm using the dates from the link you previously posted. Between 61 - 89 (?) A.D., I believe. Average life expectancy was 29 years old at this time.
    Already addressed. King Herod was 69.

    Quote Originally Posted by zgoldsmith23 View Post
    Using circular logic it sure does. Otherwise, not quite, it does not.
    How is it circular since you use the Gospels to make your case that it's contradictory?
    "Progressives aren't really progressive. They're regressive, all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah." - author unknown

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Well, all four Gospels and various epistles all confirm the resurrection. On the other side of the ledger are ZERO first century writings that it didn't happen.
    Would you really expect there to be writings of something that didn't happen?

    Already addressed. King Herod was 69.
    Doesn't matter how old Herod was. There are people that live to be 120 years old, that doesn't mean everyone lives to be that old. How old were the gospel writers?

    How is it circular since you use the Gospels to make your case that it's contradictory?
    It's circular because you're supposing what you've preconceived to be true, is true. You're citing the source that uses the gospels as a source for the gospels. That is the epitome of circular logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pin dÁr View Post
    scientific by itself isn't enough of course.
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