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Thread: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has virtually unequivocal evidence[W:577]

  1. #141
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Your evidence is always so flimsy... confirmed miracle? Some "Lord" knows about an eclipse and fakes out the masses is more like it.
    Flimsy is your argument. If you had bothered to read the article you would have noted the following:

    "The darkness spoken of in the book of Matthew occurred between noon and three P.M. in the afternoon (from the sixth to the ninth hours, as the Jews were noted as referring to the sixth and the ninth hours of daylight). Note that a solar eclipse will take less than an hour to complete, and a total solar eclipse lasts just a few minutes. This, coupled with the fact that a solar eclipse cannot occur during a full moon (the moon would be on the ‘other’ side of the earth), provides further evidence that what occurred was something other than an eclipse of the sun."

    So try again...
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    I always thought him having a twin would explain the resurrection.
    Hard to fake the whole "put your fingers in the holes in my hands and feet" bit. Additionally difficult to then explain the ascension.

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca
    A more appropriate analogy would be a fire-team that waited decades to actually write down that Cpl Jones rose from the dead and was god incarnate
    Sort of. But me and my mates continually remember to each other the particulars, and it's not like we've lost touch. If, 10 years from now (about the right time length between the first books of the New Testament and the Crucifixion), several of us decide to write about the event and then send those stories to each other, it's not likely that we all make the same major mistakes as to who died, how, or on what deployment.

    The Christian Community believed immediately that Christ had risen, and hundreds of witnesses attested to that, which is why it exploded as rapidly as it did in Judea.

    Why does the sole evidence of jesus's divinity rely on the alleged testimony of a handful of men who had every reason to lie?
    Well,

    1. It didn't rely solely on a handful of testimonies - the authors made their claims pretty easily falsifiable (you can check with the 500 people in Jerusalem who saw Him after He was risen, etc.), and furthermore, you have the difficulty of explaining the empty tomb a few days later. Jesus went somewhere, and the idea that 11 cowards overpowered a company of Roman soldiers without any of those soldiers being injured is fairly implausible. Had the early Church's claims been false, it would have been easy for the authorities to have simply pulled out the body of Jesus from where it was buried. See - there he is. Now shut up. But they never did this, because they couldn't.

    2. The New Testament accounts describe the Apostles as stupid, self-centered, cowards who were unable to maintain the most basic discipline and failed Jesus at their assigned tasks. Peter, the leader, was once addressed by Jesus as "Satan". The account pictures women of all people (in first century Judea. Women's testimony wasn't considered admissible in court) proving braver than the disciples, and it is to them that Jesus first appeared. Most of them, if not all of them, were repeatedly physically beaten, impoverished, starved, and finally executed for refusing to recant that Jesus was Risen. How in the world do you look at that and say that they had "every incentive" to do as they did, unless they believed what they had said was true?

    A large chunk of the old testament was passed down orally over a course of thousands of years
    Incorrect. The early writing down of the Bible appears to have started in around the 9th and 8th Centuries BC.

    The events in Genesis, such as Noah's flood, occurred over a thousand years before they were put on paper, and none of the writers even saw it happen. That is the entire basis of the religion.
    The flood of Noah is not the basis of Judaism. The Mosaic era and law, but more importantly, the intervention of God in the history of the Jewish people is the basis of Judaism.

    Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence
    fortunate it is, then, that not only is there more evidence for a risen Jesus than any other ancient event, but that you live in a world with millions of people who have met Him

    If we're to believe that the laws of physics were suspended and god was inside a man's body, we're going to need more than that. And yes, the things christians claim jesus did is pretty much the definition of magic. Healing wounds with your hands, turning water to wine, rising from the dead?
    no - see above: that is the opposite of magic.
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  3. #143
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Flimsy is your argument. If you had bothered to read the article you would have noted the following:

    "The darkness spoken of in the book of Matthew occurred between noon and three P.M. in the afternoon (from the sixth to the ninth hours, as the Jews were noted as referring to the sixth and the ninth hours of daylight). Note that a solar eclipse will take less than an hour to complete, and a total solar eclipse lasts just a few minutes. This, coupled with the fact that a solar eclipse cannot occur during a full moon (the moon would be on the ‘other’ side of the earth), provides further evidence that what occurred was something other than an eclipse of the sun."

    So try again...
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the Star of Bethlehem an actual Cosmological event that was recorded at the time of Jesus's birth by the Chinese ?

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  4. #144
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hard to fake the whole "put your fingers in the holes in my hands and feet" bit. Additionally difficult to then explain the ascension.



    Sort of. But me and my mates continually remember to each other the particulars, and it's not like we've lost touch. If, 10 years from now (about the right time length between the first books of the New Testament and the Crucifixion), several of us decide to write about the event and then send those stories to each other, it's not likely that we all make the same major mistakes as to who died, how, or on what deployment.

    The Christian Community believed immediately that Christ had risen, and hundreds of witnesses attested to that, which is why it exploded as rapidly as it did in Judea.



    Well,

    1. It didn't rely solely on a handful of testimonies - the authors made their claims pretty easily falsifiable (you can check with the 500 people in Jerusalem who saw Him after He was risen, etc.), and furthermore, you have the difficulty of explaining the empty tomb a few days later. Jesus went somewhere, and the idea that 11 cowards overpowered a company of Roman soldiers without any of those soldiers being injured is fairly implausible. Had the early Church's claims been false, it would have been easy for the authorities to have simply pulled out the body of Jesus from where it was buried. See - there he is. Now shut up. But they never did this, because they couldn't.

    2. The New Testament accounts describe the Apostles as stupid, self-centered, cowards who were unable to maintain the most basic discipline and failed Jesus at their assigned tasks. Peter, the leader, was once addressed by Jesus as "Satan". The account pictures women of all people (in first century Judea. Women's testimony wasn't considered admissible in court) proving braver than the disciples, and it is to them that Jesus first appeared. Most of them, if not all of them, were repeatedly physically beaten, impoverished, starved, and finally executed for refusing to recant that Jesus was Risen. How in the world do you look at that and say that they had "every incentive" to do as they did, unless they believed what they had said was true?



    Incorrect. The early writing down of the Bible appears to have started in around the 9th and 8th Centuries BC.



    The flood of Noah is not the basis of Judaism. The Mosaic era and law, but more importantly, the intervention of God in the history of the Jewish people is the basis of Judaism.



    fortunate it is, then, that not only is there more evidence for a risen Jesus than any other ancient event, but that you live in a world with millions of people who have met Him



    no - see above: that is the opposite of magic.
    I'm already just about ready to cut this off because of the way you intentionally make it exhausting to reply by chopping up posts into 50 pieces instead of just writing what you want to say.

    First, hundreds of people did not testify to the resurrection, a few authors said they did. That is not the same thing. Of course the christian community believed something they already wanted to believe. Why wouldn't they? How is that proof of anything?

    Second, yes, much of the old testament was written in the 8th and 9th BC, which is about 1000-1500 years after most of the events were supposed to have occurred. The flood was an example, of course it's not the basis of judaism, the entire old testament is, and it's based on oral tradition and legends. It's like building a house on sand. If the base isn't solid you don't have much to build on.

    The "millions of people who met him" thing is silly and I think you know it is. You have not met him. You have prayed and felt like your prayers were answered. You have not had a physical conversation with god. A human doing magical things is magic. Just because you choose to label him as a god does not suddenly make the claims not magical. It all comes down to what I initially said. The entire supernatural side of the religion relies on oral tradition and the "eye witness" testimony of a handful of people made decades after the fact.

    If yahweh is real, he's lazy and he thinks we're all extremely gullible. He could easily leave undeniable evidence of his existence but he doesn't, and I'm told by christians that's all just part of the plan so we're not coerced to believe. That's incredibly silly.

  5. #145
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Probably because 3 is a number that is common in scripture. Samuel is called 3 times before he answers, Earth was created on the 3rd day, the sign on the cross has 3 languages, Jesus was tempted 3 times by the devil.
    why not arise in three hours or three years then? anyway, it sounds too much like a script with all the threes...

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    You have some evidence they were lying then please let us see it.

    We're not talking about 21st century political liars, but men who put their lives on the line to give others the truth.
    Right, because religious people don't lie and there is no way these guys had an agenda...

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    I'm already just about ready to cut this off because of the way you intentionally make it exhausting to reply by chopping up posts into 50 pieces instead of just writing what you want to say.
    I'm trying to be specific and directly answer either your questions or the points you bring up. If you have one or two items you'd rather me expound upon, highlight them and I will.

    First, hundreds of people did not testify to the resurrection, a few authors said they did.
    had that been the case then Christianity would have almost immediately failed, as did plenty of other cults in the region at that time. However, the authors made their texts and their claims extremely falsifiable, and instead of their being falsified (which would have been insanely easy, if the claims weren't true - just pull the body out of the grave, for one) the Church exploded. The evidence suggests that you are incorrect.

    Of course the christian community believed something they already wanted to believe.
    Quite the contrary - the pre-Resurrection community had no belief that Jesus would die and then come back from the dead.

    Second, yes, much of the old testament was written in the 8th and 9th BC, which is about 1000-1500 years after most of the events were supposed to have occurred.
    depends on what you are discussing. If you are talking Genesis, then you are talking about a date range that begins in (around) 4004 BC, if you accept a literal dateline (which many do not - it's a very Enlightenment idea to impose on an ancient text)

    The flood was an example, of course it's not the basis of judaism, the entire old testament is, and it's based on oral tradition and legends. It's like building a house on sand. If the base isn't solid you don't have much to build on.
    Exodus and the Mosaic Law were what "made" the Jewish People and the Judaic Faith and occurred around 1100-1000 "ish" BC. So about 200 "ish" years before they started getting written down. Not thousands.

    The "millions of people who met him" thing is silly and I think you know it is. You have not met him. You have prayed and felt like your prayers were answered. You have not had a physical conversation with god.
    Actually A) plenty of my prayers have gone unanswered (or, I suppose, the answer was "no - deal with it") and B) yes, I have indeed had direct conversations with God.

    A human doing magical things is magic.
    Sure. But magic is the opposite of what is described in the New Testament.

    It all comes down to what I initially said. The entire supernatural side of the religion relies on oral tradition and the "eye witness" testimony of a handful of people made decades after the fact.
    Actually it doesn't - this is a common misconception among non-believers. Christians don't believe in God because the Bible told them so, they believe in the Bible because God told them so.

    If yahweh is real, he's lazy and he thinks we're all extremely gullible.
    If He is real then he, by definition, could not be lazy but we, indeed, are fallen and prone to rebellion in our pride.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

  8. #148
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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Logicman View Post
    Flimsy is your argument. If you had bothered to read the article you would have noted the following:

    "The darkness spoken of in the book of Matthew occurred between noon and three P.M. in the afternoon (from the sixth to the ninth hours, as the Jews were noted as referring to the sixth and the ninth hours of daylight). Note that a solar eclipse will take less than an hour to complete, and a total solar eclipse lasts just a few minutes. This, coupled with the fact that a solar eclipse cannot occur during a full moon (the moon would be on the ‘other’ side of the earth), provides further evidence that what occurred was something other than an eclipse of the sun."

    So try again...
    I don't know the lunar cycles back then and am certainly not taking some blog about it is proof... go ahead if you like though.

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Right, because religious people don't lie and there is no way these guys had an agenda...
    if they did, then I would like to see the argument about why they would come up with an agenda to paint themselves for all time as a bunch of self-centered, cowardly idiots and then get repeatedly beaten before being killed.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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    Re: The lost tomb of Jesus? Scientist claims he has 'virtually unequivocal evidence'

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    It is a good analogy because the process took decades to hundreds of years.
    Not really. The Pauline Epistles were written roughly 15-30 years after Christ's death, and all four Gospels were completed within the first Century.
    “In America we have a two-party system,” a Republican congressional staffer told a visiting group of Russian legislators. “There is the stupid party. And there is the evil party. I am proud to be a member of the stupid party. Periodically, the two parties get together and do something that is both stupid and evil. This is called: bipartisanship."

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