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Thread: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by Henrin View Post
    Yes, that is what the law says. What I'm trying to do is make you think of how the law runs counter to human rights. Maybe you could expand your thinking beyond sheepish nonsense.
    There is no human right to practice bigotry against someone else. You have all the rights in the world to your free thought but not practices that infringe on the rights of another. The sheepish nonsense is the belief that you are free to write your own rules simply because you open a business.

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    There is no human right to practice bigotry against someone else. You have all the rights in the world to your free thought but not practices that infringe on the rights of another. The sheepish nonsense is the belief that you are free to write your own rules simply because you open a business.
    Yes, you already mentioned civil rights and when I asked you to defend it you referred to the fact they are law. I'm sorry, but I'm less than impressed with that argument.

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    The fundamental understanding that I have is that the legislation doesn't address discrimination against anyone, but rather reenforces the already constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion, and that similar laws are already on in place in a large number of states as well as at the federal level.

    How this gets twisted inside and out into support for discrimination is an oddity to me, but the fact that LGBT bully mafia want's to take other's freedoms away doesn't surprise me very much.
    Your post makes no sense in the face of the desire for freedom to discriminate against lgbt's, the legislators boasting about meeting that desire, and the demonstrated acts of discrimination in the past.

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cardinal View Post
    Your post makes no sense in the face of the desire for freedom to discriminate against lgbt's, the legislators boasting about meeting that desire, and the demonstrated acts of discrimination in the past.
    Your post takes the all or nothing position, and, as I've come to expect from the left end of the spectrum, putting it in the worst of all possible ways, all to belittle, discredit, marginalize those of faith as much as possible.

    Regardless, there's a balance here that needs to be struck, between those of faith who's faith is that homosexuality is a sin, and the rights of the LGBT community.

    An commendation for both, with the destruction of neither is what's really needed, some middle-ground, where both can exist without threat to their existence.

    But I don't see that as being acceptable to the LGBT activists. No, it seems that they'd only be satisfied with the destruction of anything that cares to believe something different than themselves. As such, they've become the intolerant all the while claiming their vengefulness is against those they claim to be intolerant.

    And yet, when there is some sort of push back, some sort of objection to this agenda, sort some of peep of preservation for any opposing points of view, the LGBT bully mafia are amazed and baffled, so much so all they can do is scream 'bigot' as loud as they can, to belittle, marginalize, suppress and squash any equally legitimate opinion / position / beliefs, all aided and abetted and enabled by the Bias Lame Stream Media and it's one sided reporting.

    No, instigating a culture war isn't what's best for the nation, nor for either of the groups involved, and especially not good for the people on the sidelines.
    It's a global Jihad, stupid. Allowing that poison into the country is only going to increase the damage it inflicts on others.
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    Trump to NYT: “Try reporting accurately & fairly!”

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    The fundamental understanding that I have is that the legislation doesn't address discrimination against anyone, but rather reenforces the already constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion, and that similar laws are already on in place in a large number of states as well as at the federal level.

    How this gets twisted inside and out into support for discrimination is an oddity to me, but the fact that LGBT bully mafia want's to take other's freedoms away doesn't surprise me very much.

    The Indiana law was DIFFERENT from the federal law and those in other states. It wasn't just about the govt not stepping on religious freedoms; it included that a private business who discriminated against someone could claim religion as a defense if they got sued. That is very different from the other laws in other places.

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    The Indiana law was DIFFERENT from the federal law and those in other states. It wasn't just about the govt not stepping on religious freedoms; it included that a private business who discriminated against someone could claim religion as a defense if they got sued. That is very different from the other laws in other places.
    I'm going on what been reported and stated in various press conferences that I've watched on TV.

    You have your sources as well, I'm sure.

    The only I can think of getting at the real truth of the matter, and perhaps even not then, is to read and analyze the text of the legislation itself. I say perhaps not even then, as reading laws more often than not requires legal expertise to properly interpret then, unless it's written in plain language, which sometimes they are (surprising, I know, but yet sometimes it is the case).

    I'm pretty sure that the text of the law doesn't specify the scenario that you are outlining.

    So where's that leave us?

    It leaves us believing what someone else is reporting or stating, who may very well be just as confounded by the legal text, and may even have an agenda in their reporting and interpretation of the law. That's where it leaves us.

    Given all this, seems like it's safest to go with what the Governor stated in his press conference on this law, and his miserable performance on George Stephanopoulos's show Sunday, where is was treated as you'd expect to be treated from a Clintonian War Room Veteran, which is to say, as he's a conservative, not fairly and not honestly.
    It's a global Jihad, stupid. Allowing that poison into the country is only going to increase the damage it inflicts on others.
    Trump: "When You Open Your Heart To Patriotism, There Is No Room For Prejudice"
    Trump to NYT: “Try reporting accurately & fairly!”

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by eohrnberger View Post
    I'm going on what been reported and stated in various press conferences that I've watched on TV.

    You have your sources as well, I'm sure.

    The only I can think of getting at the real truth of the matter, and perhaps even not then, is to read and analyze the text of the legislation itself. I say perhaps not even then, as reading laws more often than not requires legal expertise to properly interpret then, unless it's written in plain language, which sometimes they are (surprising, I know, but yet sometimes it is the case).
    .
    I encourage you to read the text of the law.

    Or do your own research - here's an article by ABC news:
    Religious Freedom: The Difference Between Indiana's Law and All the Others - ABC News

    1. INDIANA’S LAW APPLIES TO COMPANIES; OTHERS DON’T

    “This bill is substantively different,” said Adam Talbot, spokesman for Human Rights Campaign (HRC), the D.C.-based gay rights group. “It is the broadest and most dangerous legislation of its kind.”

    The main difference, gay-rights advocates say, is this: Indiana’s law expressly applies to corporations.

    Into the weeds we go: The federal law signed by President Bill Clinton, and the similar Religious Freedom Restoration Acts (RFRAs) in 19 other states, do not say they apply to corporations, according to gay-rights advocates. Instead, they apply to people

    2. IN SOME OTHER STATES, NONDISCRIMINATION LAWS TRUMP ‘RELIGIOUS FREEDOM’ LAWS

    "If there is a nondiscrimination law” already on the books, says Lambda Legal National Law and Policy Director Jenny Pizer, “that law should be enforceable and enforced notwithstanding any religious claim.”

    Pizer says her organization, a pro-gay-rights advocacy and legal-defense group, has found that nondiscrimination laws typically trump RFRA laws in court.

    But Indiana has no statewide law barring discrimination based on sexual orientation, and only a handful of its counties have nondiscrimination laws at the local level. According to Pizer, that means there’s no protection from discrimination by companies—where in some other states, there is.

    4. THE INDIANA LAW APPLIES TO PRIVATE DISPUTES

    In declining to sign his state's Religious Freedom Restoration Act, Hutchinson pointed out that the bill differed from federal law in that it applied to private disputes, not just governmental action.

    Indiana's law is the same way. While other state's RFRA laws make it more difficult for the government to enforce laws when those laws incidentally infringe on religious beliefs, Indiana's applies to disputes between people, or between people and businesses.
    (I omitted bullet 3, because it was about intent, not about the text)

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by paddymcdougall View Post
    I encourage you to read the text of the law.

    Or do your own research - here's an article by ABC news:
    Religious Freedom: The Difference Between Indiana's Law and All the Others - ABC News



    (I omitted bullet 3, because it was about intent, not about the text)
    What have we here? We have "dam Talbot, spokesman for Human Rights Campaign (HRC), the D.C.-based gay rights group." asserting that the law is significantly different. Well, I'd expect nothing less from "the D.C.-based gay rights group".

    An in state paper reports it as:
    The problem with these questions is that the answers depend on whom you ask — especially among those most emotionally invested, but even within the legal community. And, now, with Gov. Mike Pence's announcement Saturday that he will seek further legislation to "clarify" the act, it could become even more complicated.
    The argument over what Pence has thus signed becomes not only intellectual, but visceral, vitriolic, ugly. Both sides dig in, because each thinks the other is flatly wrong — in their hearts, and on the facts. And the debate rages on, sometimes spiraling to a place so far away from the law itself.
    What the 'religious freedom' law really means for Indiana

    I take that to mean still up in the air.

    On the national level news coverage:
    Supporters say Indiana's law is similar to the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act passed in 1993.
    As is often the case in controversies, however, the facts have become muddled and conflated. So what are the facts? How are the two laws different? And how have politics on both sides shaped the response?
    . . . .
    Most conservatives, including Pence, have mostly not addressed that charge head-on. Instead, they say, the law is unfairly maligned. After all, other states have similar laws and even Democrat Bill Clinton signed a federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act into law as president.
    Indiana Law: Sorting Fact From Fiction From Politics : It's All Politics : NPR

    Fact have become muddled. Again, an assertion that the laws are similar to ones already in the statues, OK this from conservatories.

    The NPR article cited highlights that the Indiana law goes on to define 'person' which the federal statue does not. The end result being that:
    So, in other words, while the federal law states that a person can sue the government for a grievance, Indiana makes a point of stating that it doesn't matter if government is involved.
    So, OK, I'm not really seeing the enabling of discrimination here, and especially not the mandating of it. What additional concerns, based on this, would you raise?

    This whole thing could yet be little more than a tempest in a tea pot.
    It's a global Jihad, stupid. Allowing that poison into the country is only going to increase the damage it inflicts on others.
    Trump: "When You Open Your Heart To Patriotism, There Is No Room For Prejudice"
    Trump to NYT: “Try reporting accurately & fairly!”

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Now, another perspective here:

    The mainstream media has launched an all-out blitz over a new law that protects the fundamental freedom of Indiana citizens from unnecessary and unreasonable government coercion.

    The media’s gross mischaracterizations of the Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act ignore the truth: Religious Freedom Restoration Acts prevent government discrimination against religious free exercise and simply provide a way to balance religious liberty with compelling government interests.
    . . .
    As Ryan T. Anderson and I explained Thursday, the Indiana law is good policy. Like the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, Indiana’s new law prohibits substantial government burdens on religious exercise unless the government can show a compelling interest in burdening religious liberty and does so through the least restrictive means.
    These protections for religious freedom provide a commonsense way to balance the fundamental right to religious liberty with compelling government interests.
    By passing its Religious Freedom Restoration Act, Indiana joins the 19 other states that have implemented such laws. Eleven additional states have religious liberty protections that state courts have interpreted to provide a similar level of protection. These commonsense laws place the onus on the government to justify its actions in burdening the free exercise of religion.
    The True Facts About Religious Freedom Laws

    In their Thursday piece:
    These protections for religious freedom, like the one passed in Indiana, provide a commonsense way to balance the fundamental right to religious liberty with compelling government interests. The federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act protects against federal government violations of religious liberty, and state Religious Freedom Restoration Acts protect against state violations.

    By passing its Religious Freedom Restoration Act, Indiana joins the 19 other states that have implemented such laws. Eleven additional states have religious liberty protections that state courts have interpreted to provide a similar level of protection. These commonsense laws place the onus on the government to justify its actions in burdening the free exercise of religion.
    Responding to critics of the bill, who wrongly characterized the religious freedom protections, Pence stated in a press release following the signing:
    For more than twenty years, the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act has never undermined our nation’s anti-discrimination laws, and it will not in Indiana.
    He added:
    Faith and religion are important values to millions of Hoosiers and with the passage of this legislation, we ensure that Indiana will continue to be a place where we respect freedom of religion and make certain that government action will always be subject to the highest level of scrutiny that respects the religious beliefs of every Hoosier of every faith.
    Indiana Protects Religious Liberty. Why That

    So what's one to make from all these diametrically opposed and conflicting accounts?

    Seems to me that with the already existing precedence of these types of laws that only now there's objection, makes me rather suspicious. Further, seemingly taking away religious rights from some that believe differently, to force them into some sort of compliance of act counter to their religion, I can't abide by. I see it as unprincipled to do so, and counter to liberty and freedom to do so.
    It's a global Jihad, stupid. Allowing that poison into the country is only going to increase the damage it inflicts on others.
    Trump: "When You Open Your Heart To Patriotism, There Is No Room For Prejudice"
    Trump to NYT: “Try reporting accurately & fairly!”

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    Re: indiana caves on "RFRA", michigan governor says he would veto any "RFRA"

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    LOL......riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Anti-discrimination does SUPPORT human rights. While it may be a human right to be a bigot...there is no human right to practice that bigotry against another person.
    He just supports the human rights of some and not the others he considers to be subhuman.

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