• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yeah, because the constitution gives you the power to make that decision.
Indeed it does
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes, a really stupid one and irrelevant to boot.

Stupid according to you. Millions (billions?) of people think two gay people becoming husband and husband or wife and wife is beyond stupid. Others would find that ordering a penis cake for a stag party is more normal than a gay couple crying discrimination if a baker refuses for religious reasons to write a message acknowledging their union with an icing nozzle. If you can't see that, then, well... :shrug:

Such stupid questions are best left unreasoned.

Unreasoned, and yet I must be onto something since you seem fixated on my reference to a penis cake, unless you're just a troll? :confused:
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

But I don't expect honesty in your posts.

What you expect from my posts does not interest me. I write them for other people.

Couer d'Alene didn't back down. The Hitching Post backed down by re-organizing as a religious organization and changed its' policy so it no longer performs non-christian marriages, which made it exempt from the anti-discrimination regulation

I read the City Attorney's letter, and he sure as hell did back down. He would have been a fool not to. Cost the town a bundle trying to defend the indefensible in a suit in federal court, and you won't be City Attorney much longer. I've worked in city attorneys' offices, and I know very well the one in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho, has neither the time nor the budget to defend federal suits. It probably consists of about three lawyers who have their hands full with everyday legal matters. They would have had to turn this matter over to a private law firm, and that would have gotten very expensive very fast.

The fact the owners of the Hitching Post had filed the papers that made it a religious organization is irrelevant. It remained a for-profit business, and as such it remained subject to the city ordinance. It was never exempt from that ordinance, although the City Attorney unconvincingly pretended in his letter that it probably was. It is exactly because the ordinance continued to pose the threat of fines and jail time to the Knapps that the federal district court allowed both their suit and their request for a temporary restraining order to prevent the ordinance from being applied to them. If what you are claiming were true, the court would have rejected the suit and the request for a TRO as frivolous, and sanctioned the Knapps' lawyers for wasting its time by filing them.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I've already provided a link showing how the cutting of a wedding cake is a religious symbolic gesture in this very thread. You stating the opposite does nothing to disprove that link.

Wow, you gave us a link of one website in which the cutting of the cake has been transformed into a religious practice.

Which is bogus of course, because as said, wedding cakes where a Roman tradition.

The wedding cake can be used as a religious instrument but historically that is what people have made it into.

Wedding cake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wedding cake history | Maisie Fantaisie Wedding Cakes

History of the Wedding Cake | Let Them Eat Cake!

The History of Wedding Cakes

Wedding Cakes in History | Edible Art Bakery & Dessert Cafe, Raleigh, NC

The Strange History of the Wedding Cake | Arts & Culture | Smithsonian

The 7 Stage Story Of The Wedding Cake |

Wedding Cake History | WeddingCakeCreations.com

Great Cake Places - The History of Wedding Cakes

A Historical Slice of the Wedding Cake | Curious History

And you can go on and on and on and on and on. Just because people make wedding cakes into something it is not, does not give them a religious Christian meaning and especially not something that makes them so holy that people who are not Christians or straight are not allowed to have them or some gay hating baker can deny gays a cake. Or how that same "Christian" baker should be allowed to deny jews, muslims, atheists, etc. a wedding cake because they are not part of his "illk"?.

Sorry, but the marriage is over when the priest/judge/whoever says "By the powers vested in me, you are now man and wife" (or man and man, or wife and wife). People can get married and be legally married without wedding cakes or anything that resembles that.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Why do you even give a **** if law abiding citizens are gay?

Homophobes are scared, something bad might happen. Best let them be bigots and go on.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Wow, you gave us a link of one website in which the cutting of the cake has been transformed into a religious practice.

Which is bogus of course, because as said, wedding cakes where a Roman tradition.

You do realize that around 314AD the majority of Romans were Christians right? In any case...you do not have the right to tell someone what is and isn't a part of their faith.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Good grief, continuing this lie doesn't change the truth j-mac. The law itself was flawed and the fact that it was changed to ensure no discrimination of gays was allowed reflects that.

No, the law was changed because of pressure brought to bear by an interest group who saw an opportunity to make hay by mischaracterizing what the law said, and was.

Continuing this narrative that it was the fault of a reporter is absurd. Did you think the law allowed no discrimination before it entered public discussion?

It wasn't designed as an anti discrimination law in the first place as I understand it, but rather to give those citizens of faith standing in court...But the militant LGBT's, and liberal anti Christians out there seized on the opportunity to misrepresent, and stir all kinds of faux outrage to force their agenda....They succeeded, Pence caved....

Wait, what exact difference does it make if the law entered discussion because of a reporter? Does that make the law less flawed? Sour grapes all around.

Yeah, that's right Hillary...What difference does it make? Well, if you want to continue to rely on a dishonest media, just remember that kind of deception works both ways....When, if ever, the media turns to promoting more of the right wing agenda, then I am sure your tune will change, and amnesia will dominate your arguments about what is going on today....

In any case, y'all got your way. Pence caved so enjoy, and go straight out and force that 14 year old daughter, at the local Christian bakery to bake you a penis cake in celebration.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I dont read but anti-SSM is to admit bigotry.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

NYC has several privately run bus companies. Most cities and counties have them. I know for certain that there are privately owned bus companies in the area I now live in.

Ok, I'll take your word for NYC...That, by no means is "most", or "many", that's one. out of how many cities in the US?

In any case, I am done with this deflection. You tried to bring up a comparison of a metro, city bus service denying someone access to the bus, disingenuously tying the radical gay movement to the civil rights struggle of the 60s. And now, you are desperately trying to talk about anything other than this latest attack on people that had they not been sought out to make a point would have never been in the news for anything like this anyway...

This is all so dishonest, it is sickening.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

You do realize that around 314AD the majority of Romans were Christians right? In any case...you do not have the right to tell someone what is and isn't a part of their faith.

And you really ignore that for more than 1500 years Christian weddings did not include wedding cakes? That the whole premise of the religious function of a wedding cake is another bogus attempt at making the wedding cake into a religious object?

As said, wedding cakes are used in virtually all weddings, even in the Netherlands these cakes are used even though a large majority of Dutch people are not religious. The wedding cake is part of the celebration after the event, it was not a religious object even in Roman age, it was a cultural and even an object of superstitition rather that of faith and Christian origin. And the Ancient Roman empire started long before the birth of the Catholic church.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I read the City Attorney's letter, and he sure as hell did back down.

wrong, which is why you have nothing to support your claim other than your own certainty

The fact is the facts changed when HP reorganized and no longer fell under the laws reach. HP backed down by changing its' practices and reducing its' business to only christian marriages. It was driven out of the secular marriage business. Hardly a "win" for HP

The fact the owners of the Hitching Post had filed the papers that made it a religious organization is irrelevant. It remained a for-profit business, and as such it remained subject to the city ordinance.

You are leaving out the part where HP retreated from performig secular marriages because that's the part that proves that HP retreated
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Wow, you gave us a link of one website in which the cutting of the cake has been transformed into a religious practice.

Which is bogus of course, because as said, wedding cakes where a Roman tradition.

The wedding cake can be used as a religious instrument but historically that is what people have made it into.

Wedding cake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wedding cake history | Maisie Fantaisie Wedding Cakes

History of the Wedding Cake | Let Them Eat Cake!

The History of Wedding Cakes

Wedding Cakes in History | Edible Art Bakery & Dessert Cafe, Raleigh, NC

The Strange History of the Wedding Cake | Arts & Culture | Smithsonian

The 7 Stage Story Of The Wedding Cake |

Wedding Cake History | WeddingCakeCreations.com

Great Cake Places - The History of Wedding Cakes

A Historical Slice of the Wedding Cake | Curious History

And you can go on and on and on and on and on. Just because people make wedding cakes into something it is not, does not give them a religious Christian meaning and especially not something that makes them so holy that people who are not Christians or straight are not allowed to have them or some gay hating baker can deny gays a cake. Or how that same "Christian" baker should be allowed to deny jews, muslims, atheists, etc. a wedding cake because they are not part of his "illk"?.

Sorry, but the marriage is over when the priest/judge/whoever says "By the powers vested in me, you are now man and wife" (or man and man, or wife and wife). People can get married and be legally married without wedding cakes or anything that resembles that.

I would add that if the baker has sold wedding cakes to non-christian couples, then they have demonstrated that the cake is not a religious symbol to them and that their refusal to sell it to an SSM is motivated by personal animosity and are using religion to dishonestly cloak their hostility
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Ok, I'll take your word for NYC...That, by no means is "most", or "many", that's one. out of how many cities in the US?

You're the one making the claim that most cities do not have privately owned bus lines, so the burden of proof is on you. I would also note that it doesn't matter if a majority have no private lines (which I doubt) because all it would take is a significant # in order to place a burden on commerce.

In any case, I am done with this deflection. You tried to bring up a comparison of a metro, city bus service denying someone access to the bus, disingenuously tying the radical gay movement to the civil rights struggle of the 60s. And now, you are desperately trying to talk about anything other than this latest attack on people that had they not been sought out to make a point would have never been in the news for anything like this anyway...

Ummm, no. You seem to have forgotten the course this part of the discussion has taken. You tried to argue that the availability of alternatives somehow justifies discrimination, as if a little bit of discrimination is acceptable

So is homosexuality now a race?

FTR, racial bigotry is not the only form of bigotry.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

You're the one making the claim that most cities do not have privately owned bus lines, so the burden of proof is on you. I would also note that it doesn't matter if a majority have no private lines (which I doubt) because all it would take is a significant # in order to place a burden on commerce.



Ummm, no. You seem to have forgotten the course this part of the discussion has taken. You tried to argue that the availability of alternatives somehow justifies discrimination, as if a little bit of discrimination is acceptable



FTR, racial bigotry is not the only form of bigotry.

Who's was the bus analogy to begin with? Yours or mine?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

And you really ignore that for more than 1500 years Christian weddings did not include wedding cakes? That the whole premise of the religious function of a wedding cake is another bogus attempt at making the wedding cake into a religious object?

As said, wedding cakes are used in virtually all weddings, even in the Netherlands these cakes are used even though a large majority of Dutch people are not religious. The wedding cake is part of the celebration after the event, it was not a religious object even in Roman age, it was a cultural and even an object of superstitition rather that of faith and Christian origin. And the Ancient Roman empire started long before the birth of the Catholic church.

Your point? You still do not have a Right to tell someone what is and isn't a part of their religion.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Your point? You still do not have a Right to tell someone what is and isn't a part of their religion.

So religion trumps law?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

The bill was literally made into law 2 weeks ago. It received criticism from the minute it was passed because it allowed people to discriminate based on another person's sexual orientation. Continuing to claim that some imaginary crime needed to happen for it to be discussed is absurd.

The law didn't receive criticism that I know of prior to passage. Where were all the incensed people when the legislation was crafted? That seems to place your above conclusion in serious doubt.



Laws don't get changed unless people pay attention to them. What I have argued (though not explicitly) is that people would have noticed in the same way they notice discrimination that goes on in countries they don't live in. They research and then discuss topics. Believing the attention paid was the product of a reporter and not the law itself is absurd. Welcome to Politics 101.

And yet the attention paid was precisely because a reporter went out specifically looking for a business that might have reservations and highlighting that business even though no gay couple had approached that business for a service. Welcome to Politics 102.



And yet, it wasn't the "perception and attempted twisting of it" that got it changed. You can't twist a law that wouldn't have allowed for discrimination in the first place.

I would agree, but I was referring to a contrived event - not what you're claiming.



What reporter? Continuing to assert that nothing would have happened is saying that there was nothing wrong with the law and one person convinced mega-corporations, multinationals, and millions of people that there was something wrong with this law. That is patently absurd.

Again, you're answering something I didn't claim. I don't care whether the law was changed or not. I don't think there was anything wrong with the law as it was originally written. If the state of Indiana feels it will suffer harm, whether through lost business or by subjecting some of it's citizens to possible discrimination, then they can and perhaps should've changed the law. I simply maintain that the reporter asked a speculative question of no substance intentionally to create a false narrative which would inflame some people. This is not new, but it's not ethical either. There have been a lot of fabricated stories of late.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

So religion trumps law?

Rights trump law. Our Right to Freedom of Association trumps anti-discrimination laws. And the funny thing about that....religion doesn't even have to be a factor in the least for it to apply.

However I am wondering how you got what you said here from what you are responding to. Which was of a poster attempting to deny that something is religious just because it wasn't always a part of that religions doctrine. He doesn't seem to realize that not everything religious has always been a part of that religions doctrine. This applies to MANY things and not just cakes. Ex: Christmas.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I posted this on another thread and nobody disputed it:

The legalization of gay marriage gave homosexual people the right to marry each other over the objections of both the religious, and non-religious, who believe that marriage should remain as it has throughout human history, as the joining of one man, to one woman. Having that right to marry, should not be a licence to force the participation of those who in doing so, would violate the tenets of their religion. In other words, the obtaining of a right by one group, shouldn't result in the sacrificing of a right by another group.

But there's more...

A gay couple having a formal ceremony with food, a photographer, a cake, music, etc... is a 100% optional activity and totally unnecessary to exercise their right to become a legally married gay couple. How can anyone justify that a person be legally compelled to defy their religious beliefs and participate in an event/ceremony that has no effect what so ever on the rights of gay people to wed?

It's clear that choosing not to cater to a gay wedding based on religious grounds, is not discrimination against gay people, but discrimination against a ceremony that has been deemed sacrilegious for thousands of years. Laws have been passed so that nobodys religious rights can infringe on a homosexual's right to engage in a same-sex marriage, so why shouldn't there be laws passed that assure that a homosexuals rights to wed, doesn't infringe on anyones religious rights and beliefs?

Isn't that not only fair, but the way it should be?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I posted this on another thread and nobody disputed it:

The legalization of gay marriage gave homosexual people the right to marry each other over the objections of both the religious, and non-religious, who believe that marriage should remain as it has throughout human history, as the joining of one man, to one woman. Having that right to marry, should not be a licence to force the participation of those who in doing so, would violate the tenets of their religion. In other words, the obtaining of a right by one group, shouldn't result in the sacrificing of a right by another group.

But there's more...

A gay couple having a formal ceremony with food, a photographer, a cake, music, etc... is a 100% optional activity and totally unnecessary to exercise their right to become a legally married gay couple. How can anyone justify that a person be legally compelled to defy their religious beliefs and participate in an event/ceremony that has no effect what so ever on the rights of gay people to wed?

It's clear that choosing not to cater to a gay wedding based on religious grounds, is not discrimination against gay people, but discrimination against a ceremony that has been deemed sacrilegious for thousands of years. Laws have been passed so that nobodys religious rights can infringe on a homosexual's right to engage in a same-sex marriage, so why shouldn't there be laws passed that assure that a homosexuals rights to wed, doesn't infringe on anyones religious rights and beliefs?

Isn't that not only fair, but the way it should be?

That's a fantastic point Grim17!
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

So religion trumps law?

"The principle that government may not enact laws that suppress religious belief or practice is so well understood that few violations are recorded in our opinions." That is how the Supreme Court began its opinion in Church of the Lukumi Babablu Aye v. City of Hiahleah.

It should be obvious that any right guaranteed in the Bill of Rights may trump a law that restricts that right too far. Laws that discriminate against certain religions will violate the right to free exercise, for example, just as the city ordinances in Lukumi Babalu did.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Who's was the bus analogy to begin with? Yours or mine?

Yes, I was the first to mention privately owned buses, and i proved they exist.

You introduced the claim that they're only in a small # of cities, so thats your burden to prove.
 
Back
Top Bottom