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Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

In other words people are required to give up their personal beliefs and everyone must think alike in order to own a business. Thanks but no thanks. Living in such a society would be extremely boring and extremely restrictive.

No one is asked to give up their beliefs or think alike. Millions of times every day a Christian serves an atheist, a Muslim serves a Christian, liberals serve conservatives. They're not required to abandon their beliefs in doing so.

I don't see anti-discrimination laws any different than your role as moderator on DP. You boot people who choose not to comply with terms of service that allows this place to serve as a forum FOR differences of opinion. Laws against discrimination based on race, religion, etc. allow for those of widely different views to coexist peacefully.

There will be difficult cases, perhaps like baking cakes for a wedding, but those can be settled or are the downside of what works 99.9% of cases.
 
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Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

they were approached because of their religious beliefs. It was predatory from the get go, and where there are legitimate applications for that tactic, this is not one of them. This outfit had no reason to be in the media other than their views, they had made no public announcements and had sought no coverage on their own. That is significant from both a legal and ethical view, on an ethics point this is a dog's breakfast floating on a turd in the sewer.

It is called test cases and the CONs rail for someone to test companies over gun restrictions or the laws they disagree with. Deliberate, focussed and for a goal beyond a pizza...

The pizza shop owners could have simply said no comment but they (she) chose to put her opinion front and center.

They should take religious comfort that they too face the angry philistines but unlike the One they claim to follow they won't be up on some wood for 3 days to think about it.... :peace
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Sigh... more CON spin-

I'm not a Conservative. :shrug:

Do you believe in all forms welfare? Do you pay taxes to support welfare?

Nope.

If someone doesn't believe in interracial marriage should they be forced to wait on such a couple in a restaurant?

As I've been saying. No one should be forced to do what they do not want to do.

Can a fundie doctor refuse to attend a badly hurt gay man?

Hippocratic Oath. They willingly gave up that right when they swore that oath.

We are constantly 'forced' to do things we'd rather not or don't believe in.

I'm not. :shrug:

It;s called putting on your big boy pants and living in the real world rather than a false narrative the CONs love to spin about 'freedoms'....

We're talking about Rights. Not freedoms.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Where on this planet are Christians beheading gays or throwing them off high buildings? (Please bear in mind that old news doesn't count).

What is "old news", as prescribed by the White House that would mean anything more than a hour old and is detrimental to the reputation of the rock star occupant.

You have a point, but so do the other side, to a degree. You and I are alike, I am Christian and my best friend tells me to mind my own business and make sure I am right with him, what is right with others is no concern of mine. If gays are sinners, he's sitting there with them and me, because Lord, I am a sinner....and will likely never not be in this world.

Having said that, the Bible thumping scam artists on TV and radio, the fat cat preachers with their own universities who claim to know God's specific role in every political issue, are pretty close to what you refer. How many of these turds have railed at homosexuality, calling it a "curse" and a "disease" only to be arrested in a men's washroom? That does not help this Christian at all.

We have no right to condemn anyone, Jesus forgives, he gets to chose who is forgiven for what, and we need to always remember that...

But the point is exacting. The left, because it is now popular under Obama, can forgive atrocities but not a young woman who gets led into a verbal trap by a predatory TV personality wannabe
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Uber Libertarian Penn Jillette NAILS it.

 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

In case you didn't notice or didn't read far enough that particular post was designed to illicit a type of response. Which it did quite nicely in SMTA's post following that particular post. If forced to provide a service that they don't wish to provide then yes they are. Just like serfs were forced to provide for the Lords back in the medieval days.

I'd say calling other lacking in knowledge when your post does exactly that a rather ignorant use of debate ahhhh 'skills'...

Again you lack all but a basic understanding of serfs and our history. If you draw a paycheck you are being 'forced' to support many 'lords' (FYI a customer in your business isn't a Lord as you don't pay him anything to work there, need his annual bonifide to continue the shop, nor provide him labor at the Keep each year- quite the opposite... do try and get the relationship correct, CON mindset can only explain so much lack of knowledge)

So a black man was a white waitresses Lord back in the day? :doh
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Why would American Liberals have much to say about Muslims, when said religious group is so small in numbers, few people have interactions with Muslims, whether social or business.

First, because it's a religion that places God above all else. Second, when did liberals abandon a minority?

American Liberals only have things to say about SOME who call themselves Christian. There are very few who attack or denigrate all who call themselves Christian and then there is the ever so small matter that many Liberals are Christians.

It seems to me that liberals express the objection to Christians that believe that thing I mentioned above as "first".

For SOME who call themselves Christian seemingly are incapable of seeing any other person as Christian if that other person doesn't believe exactly the same things about their religion.

There are people who falsely claim many things - it's not limited to Christians, Muslims, liberals or conservatives.

The whole "Christians are being persecuted" meme is derived solely from a world view based on fantasy - at least in America.

Then why did that reporter from ABC venture in that particular pizza shop and ask that particular question - hypothetically, even?

The "Liberals say nothing about Muslims" meme denies the efforts by Liberals in those parts of the world where Islamic fundamentalism does such great harm

True, but I'm unaware of any outstanding effort in that regard. Perhaps I'm just ignorant of all of that effort. It appears to all the world that we in the US are in the process of withdrawing from the region from which such fundamentalism is spawned.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

It is called test cases and the CONs rail for someone to test companies over gun restrictions or the laws they disagree with. Deliberate, focussed and for a goal beyond a pizza...

The pizza shop owners could have simply said no comment but they (she) chose to put her opinion front and center.

They should take religious comfort that they too face the angry philistines but unlike the One they claim to follow they won't be up on some wood for 3 days to think about it.... :peace

I don't share your optimism over their personal safety...they didn't close down because of amicable disagreements, the closed down due to threats.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes it is a pretty irrational view. So why force people to go against what they believe?

Now we circle back to how our conversation started...because which laws apply to you can't be based on everyone's personal beliefs.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Sigh... more CON spin-

Do you believe in all forms welfare? Do you pay taxes to support welfare?

If someone doesn't believe in interracial marriage should they be forced to wait on such a couple in a restaurant?

Can a fundie doctor refuse to attend a badly hurt gay man?

We are constantly 'forced' to do things we'd rather not or don't believe in.

It;s called putting on your big boy pants and living in the real world rather than a false narrative the CONs love to spin about 'freedoms'....

Speaking of putting your big boy pants on, why not just have homosexuals buy pizzas for their weddings from a pizza parlor that wants to provide them with pizzas?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes actually they did state their religious beliefs. And it is that religious belief that is the reasoning behind their discrimination.

Ok, they did both, but the reaction was to an intended ACT of discrimination.

And frankly I'm not sure why anyone should care why someone says they (intend to) discriminate. It's not 'better' if there's a religious sheen on it versus the person just doesn't like homos, and even if it was 'better' how is a person to know the actual reason?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I'm not a Conservative. Nope. As I've been saying. No one should be forced to do what they do not want to do. Hippocratic Oath. They willingly gave up that right when they swore that oath. I'm not. We're talking about Rights. Not freedoms.

But ya quack like a duck, and waddle a bit... ;)

So you don't pay taxes?

So the draft back in WWII was wrong in your opinion? Your opinion reminds me of my daughter when she didn't want to do a chore or go to bed early. Not realistic, not mature, more a pipe dream than a way to run a diverse and complex society.

The hippocratic oath carries no legal weight- a doctor can refuse to see welfare, medicare, medicaid patients- there is no law against it and they can do so as they see fit. More lack of knowledge and an over simplistic viewpoint- why should a doctor be 'forced' to do something he/she doesn't wish to do when you want that 'right'?

The Right to equal treatment. In the REAL world a business open to the general public must serve all of those who obey the laws/ordinances
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Speaking of putting your big boy pants on, why not just have homosexuals buy pizzas for their weddings from a pizza parlor that wants to provide them with pizzas?

And blacks at 'their' pizza parlors... :doh

Course no gay folks came to the parlor to buy pizza, the owner stated she wouldn't provide pizza for a gay wedding- no mention of taking gay folk's money if they eat the pizza at home... :lol:
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

In sociological terms the heightened reactions are a result of a deepening divide.

As the nation see its leaders engage in childish name calling and bully tactics in DC, they grow more and more resentful of the "other" side, and more easily become hysterical, which for the left is never a long trip, go to a labor rally and listen to some speeches.

The nation has had six years of confrontation on just about every file. Ferguson becomes a bigger issue because the first black president has to face it somehow. Having promised everything to everyone on every file, a simple shooting becomes a right-left issue because of a push for gun control.

And anytime there is push, there is push back. It grows more severe as one side sees itself as being pushed into too many corners, 'Damn now we can't even say "no" to a customer for any reason if they're ______________ fill in the blank.'

and then there is the aspect, for both sides, that they have a "just cause" whether it be middle ages Biblical morality or a hysterical reaction to a predatory planted question designed to pull some triggers......the perfect storm if you will, and a race baited, hyper sensitive "stupid voter" waiting to be fed a reason....

Has the "divide" always existed, but now it's okay to riot and burn buildings to the ground if you feel like it? I agree that it's being fed, but we used to be more law-abiding in the past. There will always be more "have-nots" than "haves," and those are the ones being targeted to achieve some sort of an agenda objective. Why? Do they want martial law to be declared, like we're some sort of third world country, or Nazi Germany, or is there more to it in their grand scheme? Everyone is constantly being kept on edge, on both sides, by propaganda rhetoric - why is this happening in America at this point in time? It's almost like desperation has set in for certain people, and they've decided to go for broke - the H*** with our laws! What's it going to be like in this Country if China and Russia and many other countries succeed in making our dollar worthless? Will people finally wake up when they see their standard of living drop like a rock? That could be our future, and it will affect everyone, haves and have-nots alike! :afraid: .. :scared:
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Why would American Liberals have much to say about Muslims, when said religious group is so small in numbers, few people have interactions with Muslims, whether social or business.

American Liberals only have things to say about SOME who call themselves Christian. There are very few who attack or denigrate all who call themselves Christian and then there is the ever so small matter that many Liberals are Christians.

For SOME who call themselves Christian seemingly are incapable of seeing any other person as Christian if that other person doesn't believe exactly the same things about their religion.

The whole "Christians are being persecuted" meme is derived solely from a world view based on fantasy - at least in America.

The "Liberals say nothing about Muslims" meme denies the efforts by Liberals in those parts of the world where Islamic fundamentalism does such great harm



What utter bull****.

Liberals as you call them in the US have been attacking "God" in the form of the Christian church for over a century. Prayer in school? hell no! But break five times a day for Muslims is a right.

And since when are Muslims a minority? Islam is the largest religion in the world and the only one with global supremacy through war as its foundation. When was the last time anyone of you pointed out the harsh treatment of gays and lesbians in Islamic countries? And I thought Liberals were all about protecting the rights of minorities.

We have a war against Christian symbolism of Christmas but gee, no one gets excited about the Roman Paganism represented in the Supreme Court or it's Titan goddess "Lady Liberty" nee "Justicia, the goddess of retribution and justice.

The head "liberal" in the White House justifies beheadings and burning people alive while his followers rail at Bibles in schools.

Don't try to give me any crap about Christians not being persecuted in America.

Or does your "caring" stop at the US border?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

And blacks at 'their' pizza parlors... :doh

Course no gay folks came to the parlor to buy pizza, the owner stated she wouldn't provide pizza for a gay wedding- no mention of taking gay folk's money if they eat the pizza at home...
She finds nothing sinful about homosexuals eating pizza at home. She does find something sinful about homosexuals eating pizza in celebration of a homosexual wedding. Sounds fair to me
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

What utter bull****.

Liberals as you call them in the US have been attacking "God" in the form of the Christian church for over a century. Prayer in school? hell no! But break five times a day for Muslims is a right.

And since when are Muslims a minority? Islam is the largest religion in the world and the only one with global supremacy through war as its foundation. When was the last time anyone of you pointed out the harsh treatment of gays and lesbians in Islamic countries? And I thought Liberals were all about protecting the rights of minorities.

We have a war against Christian symbolism of Christmas but gee, no one gets excited about the Roman Paganism represented in the Supreme Court or it's Titan goddess "Lady Liberty" nee "Justicia, the goddess of retribution and justice.

The head "liberal" in the White House justifies beheadings and burning people alive while his followers rail at Bibles in schools.

Don't try to give me any crap about Christians not being persecuted in America.

Or does your "caring" stop at the US border?

"Believe what we tell you to believe, and disregard what you see with your own eyes! That's an order... disobey at your own peril!" Have I got it right? :shock:
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Funny, just two days ago, liberals of all stripes were clamoring about how the market was making itself heard with regard to this pizza shop, and now you're all butt hurt that the market is making itself heard.. Jees man, get your stories straight.. :)


Tim-

The market would be based on how good their pizza is. None of us know how good it is.

The lemmings are predictably lining up to give them money, not for any market based reason but because they're the RW heroes of the week.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Has the "divide" always existed, but now it's okay to riot and burn buildings to the ground if you feel like it? I agree that it's being fed, but we used to be more law-abiding in the past. There will always be more "have-nots" than "haves," and those are the ones being targeted to achieve some sort of an agenda objective. Why? Do they want martial law to be declared, like we're some sort of third world country, or Nazi Germany, or is there more to it in their grand scheme? Everyone is constantly being kept on edge, on both sides, by propaganda rhetoric - why is this happening in America at this point in time? It's almost like desperation has set in for certain people, and they've decided to go for broke - the H*** with our laws! What's it going to be like in this Country if China and Russia and many other countries succeed in making our dollar worthless? Will people finally wake up when they see their standard of living drop like a rock? That could be our future, and it will affect everyone, haves and have-nots alike! :afraid: .. :scared:



Its a matter of empowerment. "we won, you lost, shut up"

It's like the proverbial frog in a cup of cold water, he will be happy all the while the water turns to a boil and never notice, as opposed to leaping out if you thew him in to already hot water. The 'divide' of haves and have nots has always been there and always will, this is not about the divide, but power. We have it, you don't and we are "right", we have a "just cause", which every war ever waged started out with something "just" but has become a grotesque.

And not to put too fine a spin on it, but America has become a nation feeding on itself. Never in history has there ever been a president more obsessed with his "enemies". Obama has spent more of the nation's resources fighting Republicans than all the wars, war on poverty, war on drugs, war on illiteracy, war on terror..." combined.

And the "stupid voter" has eaten it up, loved it so much he maintains an approval rating above 30% when he should be gone. A shooting of a congresswoman in Texas has to become Sarah Palin's fault, a race riot?, anything that happens become a split...from speeches by foreign leaders to oil pipelines, the wedge has to be driven in deeper, no compromise, not prisoners.

What it's going to be like if China, Russia or Canada invades is exactly what you have now. The enemy is already at the gates, but you can't call them "radical Islam."

When the twin towers came down the nation appeared leaderless for a few hours, then a fumbling apparently doltish president rallied a nation as one to fight back against a common enemy. Now, the enemy is pressing at a distant gate and the nation is in two parts, more disunited than it has ever been.

What happened? A very vain, inexperienced, lazy hot shot who hates details got the top job because the American voter became so recognizably "stupid" that anyone with good looks and a gift for lying could win. You elected a snake oil salesman.....twice.

And it won't likely get any better if the Democrats are rewarded again, worse in fact. What is needed is a moderate and I'm not sure if the nation can tolerate that now with so many resentments built up.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

"Believe what we tell you to believe, and disregard what you see with your own eyes! That's an order... disobey at your own peril!" Have I got it right? :shock:

Yep, pretty close.

"believe what we tell you" works the more stupid is the voter, to the point that one day you can claim there is no persecution of Christians at all.

You see, when what we tell you is all you know, then you have to believe everything they tell you. that's why they hate Fox News. it creates thought, and thought leads to questions, and questions lead to independent thought which lead to more questions that we can't answer, like how terrorism has grown under Obama and no one really notices....?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

What utter bull****.

Liberals as you call them in the US have been attacking "God" in the form of the Christian church for over a century. Prayer in school? hell no! But break five times a day for Muslims is a right.

And since when are Muslims a minority? Islam is the largest religion in the world and the only one with global supremacy through war as its foundation. When was the last time anyone of you pointed out the harsh treatment of gays and lesbians in Islamic countries? And I thought Liberals were all about protecting the rights of minorities.

We have a war against Christian symbolism of Christmas but gee, no one gets excited about the Roman Paganism represented in the Supreme Court or it's Titan goddess "Lady Liberty" nee "Justicia, the goddess of retribution and justice.

The head "liberal" in the White House justifies beheadings and burning people alive while his followers rail at Bibles in schools.

Don't try to give me any crap about Christians not being persecuted in America.

Or does your "caring" stop at the US border?

Your response to my earlier post is filled with even more " bull****" as it attempts to redirect from a very USA-directed response which had little connection with the rest of the world as a former "journalist" should have noted from the qualifying statement "at least in America"

Give us your best examples of "Christian persecution" in America.

Yeah, us "Liberals" have been attacking Christianity for a while :roll:
But every state, says an inquisitor, has established some religion. No two, say I, have established the same. Is this a proof of the infallibility of establishments?
-- Thomas Jefferson, Notes on the State of Virginia, 1781-82

The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man.
-- Thomas Jefferson, to Jeremiah Moor, 1800

I am for freedom of religion, & against all maneuvres to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.
-- Thomas Jefferson, letter to Elbridge Gerry, 1799

Give us the words of the President in which he "justifies beheadings and burning people alive"

Where is this "war against Christmas"? Why are you using the deliberately inflammatory phrasing of a certain media bloviator?

No one is getting excited, well most of us aren't anyway, about the symbolic Roman paganism of Justice.

Allowing Muslim students to pray once a day during school hours is one of those religious freedom things Americans are guaranteed. There are five prayers a day (Salat) but four of them are performed at times students aren't normally in school classrooms, the one noontime prayer would be at lunch times so again it would not disturb normal study times.

Yes Muslims number in the billions but not in the US, which was the intent of my earlier post.

Why are you so upset that you completely misconstrued what I wrote?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

It's a long story, but I thought "would be" children was clear enough. The point was he wanted a 'traditional family' and the 'traditional life' and dated his wife for years KNOWING he was gay and had he stayed married (he didn't) they'd have had children. But that wasn't possible, he WAS gay, tried like hell to BE straight and finally accepted it was impossible - he WAS gay, period.

And what I don't know is what you'd expect of him. The only options I know of are, 1) live a lie as a straight person, 2) live openly gay and with whom he loves (what you call a "deviant lifestyle"), or 3) live a life alone without intimacy. I cannot EXPECT anyone to live a life alone. You must. I don't think that's a fair expectation or demand from the perspective of religion.

The Apostle, Paul said to man, "You can't live a life of celibacy it's better that you marry." So, even he knew that not all men can live a life alone without intimacy. Of course, in his day he was referring to men marrying women not man marrying man or woman marrying woman. Still from a moral standpoint we can ask all gays and lesbians to abstain (repent) from this immoral (sinful) behavior, but it's highly doubtful those who live such a lifestyle will "keep it in the closet" throughout their lives. And you really can't expect them to.

Man is a social creature. We need to be around others. We need intimacy. It's just how we're built. The hope is that "man will leave his father and his mother's house, cleave to his wife and the two shall become one flesh," but sometimes that just doesn't happen...well, at least not in the way it was intended.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Let me run this past y'all.

Suppose I, as a business owner of faith,decided I would bake the SSM cake but, would charge 3X my usual price [a Muslim sin tax if you will]

Would the Homosexual agendites agree to my terms or simply move along to the next baker?

Kinda depends on whether or not they find another baker who was willing to bake their cake to their exact specifications and charge the same price or less for it OR if their baker was the Cake Boss and was willing to bake them an awesome cake at X4 the price. :mrgreen:
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Except catering a wedding isn't about JUST selling a product. It is also selling a service. Besides, when have you ever heard of a company not endorsing its products? If a company caters to weddings they are also endorsing weddings. Otherwise they wouldn't have gotten into the business of catering to weddings in the first place.

The service a business sells is not an endorsement. The plumber who fixes the pipes in a strip joint is not endorsing the strip joint. And the service the plumber is "endorsing" is his own work, not what his customer does.

Again, there is no legal, moral, nor even a logical, basis upon which to claim that a business endorses what a customer does with its' good and services.

And people go into the catering business to make money and not to endorse events.


No, I brought up endorsements. You're the one that made it about the schools.

No, you're the one that first mentioned schools. Here's the link to your post

Apparently you didn't read a word that was on that website. It explains the symbolism of a wedding cake. Which caterers often provide.

I read it. It said nothing about the caterer doing anything of religious significance. It spoke only about the newlyweds cutting and eating the cake. The caterer has nothing to do with it, and we're not talking about cakes. We're talking about pizzas. Those are pies, not cakes.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Again, just because the government does do something doesn't mean they actually can Constitutionally.

It does when the court finds the law constitutional

And its not the first time that something unconstitutional has stayed on the books for decades.

And until it does, the law is constitutional. Seperate but equal was constitutional, until it wasn't.
 
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