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Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed[W:1581]

Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

No. Why would you ask such a silly question?

bigot
noun big·ot \ˈbi-gət\
: a person who strongly and unfairly dislikes other people, ideas, etc. : a bigoted person; especially : a person who hates or refuses to accept the members of a particular group

Thank you for that definition... I knew that "bigot" was the appropriate word for those around here who have shown their disdain and intolerance for people who embrace religion.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Thank you for that definition... I knew that "bigot" was the appropriate word for those around here who have shown their disdain and intolerance for people who embrace religion.

There are certainly bigots about religion just as there are bigots regarding SSM.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I would add that if the baker has sold wedding cakes to non-christian couples, then they have demonstrated that the cake is not a religious symbol to them and that their refusal to sell it to an SSM is motivated by personal animosity and are using religion to dishonestly cloak their hostility

And I would seriously doubt whether they would demand evidence of baptizing before selling them wedding cakes.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Your point? You still do not have a Right to tell someone what is and isn't a part of their religion.

And they still did not have the right to deny selling them a wedding cake.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Two things:
1. These businesses would have to show how catering a gay marriage is in contrast to their religion AND that will open up how the business is run. If the business can't show that their faith is part of other operations they are hosed. Because yes the courts will go there. If you are Christian you better not be picking and choosing what parts of the religion you practice when it comes to dealing with the public. I can't wait till when a journalist finds one of these places open on a Sunday for example :lol:

2. The GOP needs to distance it's self from this issue. This thing is a loser of an issue in 2016.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes, I was the first to mention privately owned buses, and i proved they exist.

You introduced the claim that they're only in a small # of cities, so thats your burden to prove.

You are correct in saying that you were the first to mention "private buses" however, that was only after you got called out on your poor analogy where you said only this:

"and why would a black person want to be driven on a bus where the driver didnt want them?"

That was you in post #1694 the very first mention by you of a bus at all....Notice no "private" in there at all....And following the line of postings before that, clearly IMHO, you injected this analogy to disingenuously tie this argument of this thread to the civil rights struggles of the past.

As to your assertion that public transit systems are sometimes privately operated, I found this:

"Public transport bus operation is differentiated from other bus operation by the fact the owner or driver of a bus is employed by or contracted to an organisation whose main public duty or commercial interest is to provide a public transport service for passengers to turn up and use, rather than fulfilling private contracts between the bus operator and user. Public transport buses are operated as a common carrier under a contract of carriage between the passenger and the operator.

The owners of public transport buses may be the municipal authority or transit authority that operates them, or they may be owned by individuals or private companies who operate them on behalf of the authorities on a franchise or contract basis."

Public transport bus service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Which would lead me to cede the point to you also, until you read this:

"The massive subsidies that were granted to US and Canadian railroads are an example of state intervention. In the early 20th the overprovision of rail lines, competition between carriers and market failures led to a crisis in many parts of the transport industry, particularly after 1918. This led to a growing degree of government involvement in the transport industry, both to offset market failures, jurisdictional conflicts and to ensure that services could be maintained for the sake of the "public good":

In many cities private bus companies were taken over by municipally controlled transit commissions in the 1930s and 1940s.

The airline industries in many countries were placed under the control of a national public carrier, for example Air France, Trans Canada Airlines, and British Overseas Airways Corporation.

Railways were nationalized in Europe after World War Two, and in the US, after the collapse of the Penn Central Railroad and several other lines, a publicly-funded passenger system (Amtrak) was set up, and a publicly owned freight railroad was established (Conrail)."

snip

"Urban transit systems remain dominantly publically owned and operated. Intercity is mostly private, which brings the question about if city transportation would gain to be privatized."

https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch9en/conc9en/ch9c1en.html

So I stand by my claim that most urban public transportation services are publicly owned, and operated...

Did we clear that up, and can now move back on topic?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

And they still did not have the right to deny selling them a wedding cake.

If I have something for sale, I don't have to sell it to you if I don't want to.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes, they were elected, however that is irrelevant to the reaction of folks.



And yet there they are, reporting on the bill before it was made into law, which goes against your narrative about the issue coming into question because of some pizza joint.



Utter nonsense. The story was posted on May 31st, people had been calling on Pence to veto the bill since AT LEAST May 25th.

Source for dates: RFRA: Michiana business wouldn't cater a gay wedding - ABC57 News - See the Difference Michiana



Nope, I maintain that it ensured gays would not be discriminated against while people hide behind their religious beliefs to do so. :shrug:

Yeah, we're gonna continue to disagree. I maintain nothing happened, and nobody has provided any evidence whatsoever that anything did other than rampant hysteria over evil Christians.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

No mention that it trumps any laws. I said the law has to reflect freedom of religion.

It does. The people are free to practice their religion in accordance with laws. There are some exceptions made in certain laws to allow some leeway. But this isn't one of those because it would allow for anyone to claim religious exemption for basically any discrimination and there would be no point to the laws. All religions are treated equally in this law. No person can use their religious beliefs as reasoning for denying a service/product they offer to a customer. Just as no one can use their religious beliefs to be excluded from paying taxes of from having to get a drivers license to drive a car.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

So if I believe that abortion on demand is immoral, the law says that I am required to cater a Planned Parenthood fundraiser? Is that what you're saying? I don't have the right of refusal?
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

So if I believe that abortion on demand is immoral, the law says that I am required to cater a Planned Parenthood fundraiser? Is that what you're saying? I don't have the right of refusal?

No the law doesn't say anything like that. Planned parenthood is not a protected class. Now if you agreed to cater a Planned Parenthood function for black people or nonChristians, you could not then refuse to cater a planned parenthood function for white people or Christians, claiming something about your religion only recognizes that whites or Christians should not have abortions. That would be illegal discrimination based on the people involved in the event.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Well, I didn't mention religion; I was referring to conscience.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Well, I didn't mention religion; I was referring to conscience.

Even if the claim was one of conscience, it wouldn't change anything. The same rules apply.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I don't understand your question.
He's going to pull the "what about sacrificing virgins" argument on you
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Yes they are being forced to abandon their religious beliefs, or face legal action.
That is a lie and it seems to be the only thing you are capable to bring to the discussion.No one is forced to do anything. How are they forced to abandon anything when they freely take on a responsibility to do something?

So your position is, that a person must give up their religious freedom, their beliefs, and their moral conscience to open a bakery?
More lies. I never said anything of the sort. Either you lack basic reading skills or the ability to formulate a rational and intelligent argument. Anyone can open any business they choose and they also must choose who they want to be their clientele. Those who open businesses to the public have the obligation to serve the public. One can not do something freely and then claim that one is being forced.

Certainly it is. Forcing a Muslim, Christian or Jewish bakery owner to provide goods or services for a ceremony that violates their religious beliefs, is asking them to give up their right to believe in the tenets of their religion.
NO IT IS NOT. Have you at least made an attempt to understand what I wrote? If they open a business to serve the public they have to serve the public. No one is forced to open a business to serve the public.

Refusal to take part in the wedding ceremony, in no way abridges their right to get married.
No one said it does, but it IS discrimination.

Forcing people to abandon their religious beliefs for someones party, is the height of intolerance.
Repeating the same failed argument is the height of ignorance. NO ONE IS FORCED TO DO ANYTHING.

Who are they discriminating against?
Seriously? The people who they refuse to serve.

Who is in attendance is absolutely irrelevant... It's the event they object to.
There would be no event if people did not participate in it. They are objecting to a gay couple having the event.

Yes, abundantly.

Then please tell me when any of these businesses that have been discussed in the last week, have said they will not serve gay people?
Are you attempting to say that no business would deny service to gays if they could?

Every single one of them have made it clear that they will not refuse service to gay people and have not done so.
But they would cater of participate in a wedding for divorced people, adulterers etc.

You are a bigot.
Because I opposed discrimination, and you are the one who supports it?

You have just displayed your intolerance for the beliefs of others.
I have no problem with anyone's beliefs. I just expect people to live up to the obligations they freely take on. It is the way to ensure a safe and civilized society. It is unfortunate that you lack the ability to understand that.

But it doesn't work both ways...
Of course it works both ways and that is the beauty of it. Too bad that ignorance prevents you from understanding that simple concept.

Because religious people are the scum of the earth in your eyes
More ignorant lies.

that do not have rights and do not deserve to be treated equally.
On the contrary, everybody has rights and should be treated equally.

Your position is one of intolerance and pure bigotry.
Yet I oppose discrimination and you defend it.
 
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Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

So if I believe that abortion on demand is immoral, the law says that I am required to cater a Planned Parenthood fundraiser? Is that what you're saying? I don't have the right of refusal?
You do not if you have a catering open to the public. You could have a number of other forms of businesses that would allow refusal, but not one open to the public.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

I asked a few questions in there and you failed to address them... It's obvious to me why you didn't, because if you did it would either contradict your stance, or make you look like a fool.

I've answered your questions in several earlier posts. Once again, you can do nothing other than make up stuff.

And the answer is that a vendor supplying a good or service to a wedding is not "participating in the wedding"

For example, the florist who delivers flowers to my date does not participate in the date or the blowjob she gives me after getting the flowers.
 
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Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

You are correct in saying that you were the first to mention "private buses" however, that was only after you got called out on your poor analogy where you said only this:

"and why would a black person want to be driven on a bus where the driver didnt want them?"

Yes, I said that but it's not an analogy. It was a demonstration of how absurd your question was:
Why would a gay couple want someone opposed to their lifestyle to participate in their day anyway?

That was you in post #1694 the very first mention by you of a bus at all....Notice no "private" in there at all....And following the line of postings before that, clearly IMHO, you injected this analogy to disingenuously tie this argument of this thread to the civil rights struggles of the past.

Correct. I didn't mention private or public because it makes no difference. Why would black person want a bus driver who opposes their lifestyle to participate in their day? It doesn't matter if the driver is employed by the govt or a private business. Why would black person want a bus driver who opposes their lifestyle to participate in their day?

And the answer is simple: They don't give a **** what the driver thinks just as the gay couple might not care what the baker thinks. They just want a cake.

As to your assertion that public transit systems are sometimes privately operated, I found this:

...snip...
In many cities private bus companies were taken over by municipally controlled transit commissions in the 1930s and 1940s.

The airline industries in many countries were placed under the control of a national public carrier, for example Air France, Trans Canada Airlines, and British Overseas Airways Corporation.

Railways were nationalized in Europe after World War Two, and in the US, after the collapse of the Penn Central Railroad and several other lines, a publicly-funded passenger system (Amtrak) was set up, and a publicly owned freight railroad was established (Conrail)."

snip

"Urban transit systems remain dominantly publically owned and operated. Intercity is mostly private, which brings the question about if city transportation would gain to be privatized."

https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch9en/conc9en/ch9c1en.html

So I stand by my claim that most urban public transportation services are publicly owned, and operated...

Did we clear that up, and can now move back on topic?

No, you once again have failed to remember what was said. Whether nor most bus lines were public or private was never discussed. What you did make an issue is whether or not most cities had private bus lines. There's a difference.

ANd worst of all, your own quotes confirms what I said:
As to your assertion that public transit systems are sometimes privately operated,
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

There are certainly bigots about religion just as there are bigots regarding SSM.
If one doesnt approve of say...lying, or maybe killing, or stealing, or raping, or any other numbers of 'sin' categories, are they considered 'bigots'?
 
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Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Two things:
1. These businesses would have to show how catering a gay marriage is in contrast to their religion AND that will open up how the business is run. If the business can't show that their faith is part of other operations they are hosed. Because yes the courts will go there. If you are Christian you better not be picking and choosing what parts of the religion you practice when it comes to dealing with the public. I can't wait till when a journalist finds one of these places open on a Sunday for example :lol:

2. The GOP needs to distance it's self from this issue. This thing is a loser of an issue in 2016.
Meh...a few more video taped attempts to have Muslims cater to gay marriages, a couple of law suits...and this stuff all goes away.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

If I have something for sale, I don't have to sell it to you if I don't want to.

Are you a public accommodation? Because then you would have to, that is the law.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Are you a public accommodation? Because then you would have to, that is the law.

have to what? cater a KKK meeting if they come in your store? OR ELSE people like YOU will run them out of business. your argument has more holes than a wiffle ball.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

have to what? cater a KKK meeting if they come in your store? OR ELSE people like YOU will run them out of business. your argument has more holes than a wiffle ball.

Really? No, not really, you see the law is the law.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

have to what? cater a KKK meeting if they come in your store? OR ELSE people like YOU will run them out of business. your argument has more holes than a wiffle ball.

Such hyperbole. Is anyone born as a KKK member? Being in a hate group is not a protected class and it's not an innate feature that someone can not change.
 
Re: Indiana's 'No Gay Wedding' Pizzeria Has Closed

Such hyperbole. Is anyone born as a KKK member? Being in a hate group is not a protected class and it's not an innate feature that someone can not change.

how is a gay wedding an "innate feature that cannot change"? They CHOSE to put on the wedding, so the business owner should be able to CHOOSE whether to cater it or not.
I agree they should not refuse to serve a gay person, but this situation has nothing to do with that.
 
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